The Observation Deck

Hi,
Ms. Molinski, I agree completely that we must not be negative on Lakewood. But, a rail line splitting Lakewood in 2 for 4-10 minute periods 25 to 50 times a day borders on insane. The tie in to the existing Rapid line is a great idea. I don't believe people will ride a train to work. If they would then the Rapid would be busier. Calling it by a different name will not help get people to ride it, IMHO.

Want to make Lakewood special, build the peninsula and then have a high speed commuter ferry hovercraft ring the Great Lakes. Build wind-mills. Lakewood Public Power! Promote green ideas. Tear up the tracks between Clifton and Detroit and extend the metro parks bike trails to run through Lakewood.

Promoting a bad idea (eg Cleveland med Mart or commuter train line) will not help the region, even if we want it to help.

To the people against this idea: This kind of thinking is what doomed Cleveland to be a second rate city over a hundred years ago. At one time Cleveland was a bigger city than Chicago. Have you ever been there? You can get on a train to downtown 100 miles away. That is what made Chicago what it is today. Cleveland? Gotta drive downtown or almost as far if you drive to the rapid. There should at the least be rail lines to Akron, Columbus, Lorain and Mentor. This country needs to use less foreign oil and rail is one of the solutions.

I am generally a great supporter of public transportation. I have read with great interest this thread regarding adding light rail.
The one thing that has been missing from each post has been whom will be the operator?
Tim Liston's post was great and brought back memories of my similar experiences in Manhattan. He also referred to the Acela, Amtraks "high speed" train. I saw it this past week on one of my regular trips to D.C.
Speaking of which, whenever I go to D.C. I usually fly. Good friends usually give me a ride to Hopkins (thanks DL).But on the return, it's a total crap shoot.
In the last 4 trips, I have been disappointed in two of them. I ended up walking home from W.117. There is a total collapse of customer service and any reasonable bus transportation once you get off the Rapid. Just try to figure out the fare. Impossible. It's not posted. Ask a clerk when the next bus is coming. They don't know.
Speaking of my trip, one of my great pleasures in visiting D.C. is riding the Metro and the buses. It's so easy even a rube from the Midwest can get around fine!
So, in conclusion, if a new rail line has any connection to RTA - the builders of the Euclid Corridor (don't get me started on that piece of civic demolition) than I say NO. Spend the money on something else green--- wind power.
Stan Austin

Hi,
Stan, sorry to hear our local commuter bus service doesn't work very well. Perhaps we can improve it by extending its hours and making the schedule reliable. I have never had the time or the necessity to use it. As you mention a reliable schedule is critical to any public transportation solution. But that consistent schedule for a train running on the tracks between Clifton and Detroit would disrupt all of Lakewood far to frequently for it to be a good solution. Don't want to use the RTA Rapid tracks and still want a hi-speed train? Then build a new line that runs over head of I90.

Mr. Burnett, when you say Cleveland is now doomed, I have to agree. Past tense. We need to worry about saving Lakewood from a similar fate. In talking with friends that should know, they tell me the Population for Cleveland in the next census will be half what it was in 2000. So. what is the goal of a commuter train to nowhere? I'm glad you agree that the line is not focused on helping Lakewood. Now, regarding the need to use less foreign oil, I agree again with you. But instead of constructing a commuter rail line that will not be used, let's get a Lakewood company going that builds/converts cars/trucks/Hummers to the 100mpg format like Neil Young's 100mpg converted 1959 Lincoln. Let's look for new future thinking ideas. Let's grow Lakewood! We need to promote ideas that will be win-win for Lakewood and the surrounding area. A commuter train that cuts Lakewood in 2 in not such an idea.

^
Agree with this post. High-speed rail through the middle of Lakewood. That's a joke, right. It should fit in with the new Grant/Lincoln: "Hey kids. Don't look both ways. Just run as fast as you can and hope the thing doesn't come through and kill you before you see or hear it." A high-speed train forced to go 25 mph and beep loudly at every intersection is more likely. And all those stops and delays will kill ridership and put the thing in the red. I'm all for rail, in theory. Putting it elevated on I-90 is a better thought.

Valerie Molinski wrote:And Bill, the site you reference is NOT this proposal. Nice try though.

Did you know that Lakewood is the most densely populated area between NYC and Chicago curently? As a whole (region), we may have not picked up any more population in recent years. I'm just tired of the negativity and the 'why we can't's that are just going to cause more people to move out. If we are going to keep arguing why we cannot move forward as a region, then yes, we are lost and there will be no one to ride the trains.

I included the reference because it gives us a glimpse of the kind of thinking that drives the light rail advocates. It is the kind of thinking that built the $75 million Waterfront Line (now called the ghost line).

This proposal will do nothing for the City of Lakewood. Think of it as another freeway through town.

What will help this City? Completion of the Shoreway/Boulevard project, restoration of Clifton Park, the reconfiguration of Clifton into a true boulevard, completing the first phase of the peninsula project, expansion of the West 117th I-90 exit to include greater access to Detroit and Madison that would open up abandoned warehouses and factories to further development, increased Lakefront access for a new port of Lakewood, partnership with Cleveland in an effort to tear down obsolete structures along 117th and more...

How many new developments were there along RTA's existing light rail lines? How much new development is there along the Ghost Line?

Actually, it seems that this whole topic would be something that Lakewood has seen before...that is, 100 years before now.

Old time Lakewoodites are aware that, until the late '30's, both streetcar and interurban rail service shared a set of tracks on Clifton's tree lawns. The interurban service went all the way up to Toledo, having two stops in Lakewood. Both streetcar and interurban were electric powered. There were other streetcar lines along Detroit and Madison avenues. Steetcars lasted until they were replaced by bus service in the 1950's.

There was also a short so-called "dummy" railway line that operated here, taking people to the Clifton Park area.

Check out the Lakewood Historical Society for more information concerning all of this.

One of the issues that I perceive concerning all of this goes along with Bill's point about our population. Given our area's relative lack of traffic congestion during rush hour, plus the relative available of parking just about everywhere..and these factors would seem to contribute to our having a reduced demand around here for public
transportation.

Perhaps with rising petrol costs, a return to electric transportation will be in the cards. Remember though, that presently, much of our electricity continues to be coal-generated. Energy usage and conversation continues to be very much a public discussion issue as these rail options are again considered.

By the way, as I remember Chicago, their city train ran up the median strip of the Dan Ryan Expressway for quite a while. They did not need to elevate it for at least that part of the ride.

it would be useful for the RTA to post route maps and schedules at each bus shelter. specific to the buses that attend those bus shelters.

the RTA is very bad at route maps.

there are some kind of numbers posted on the bus shelters. when I call the RTA to ask them why the bus hasn't arrived for 90 minutes, they ask me which bus shelter I am at. I read them the identification number printed on the bus shelter. they don't know what it is. This is if I reach an operator. usually the automatic answering service tells me about the RTA website. I suspect most people who call the RTA customer service numbers printed on the RTA bus shelters are doing so because they are not holding a computer with an internet connection. The RTA is dumb.

The RTA has begun requiring their buses to sound these sirens whenever the bus swerves, accelerates, decelerates, or turns. drivers are now required to beep the horn when turning. This is because a few of the mentally deficient drivers have run people over with their buses. these new sounds are stressful to hear. they give the imperssion the bus is about to crash. so I've begun drinking after work before getting on the bus.

Light rail in the form of Rapid Transit has completely ruined Shaker Heights, correct?

We can look at the Euclid Project - the insane bus lines and bus stops and we should be able to see that a bus is a bus is a bus and nobody loves the bus.

Having been in the Bay Area and used Bart extensively and having used the incredible D.C. transit system, I am completely bewildered by the continued backwards thinking about public transit.

We may as well pull up the tracks and make a Rails to Trails project since we're all going to be using our bicycles to get around.

Oh, and I totally agree with Ryan.

We've spent some time in Europe, and within cities, it is common to have a mixture of trams (railed transit) and buses. The trams are electic; I think the buses are diesel. I don't know which is more energy efficient, but it seems to me the buses have more flexibility, since the trams can't leave the rails and overhead wires. So if a neighborhood changes and needs more or less transport, the tram is relatively inflexible, while the buses can easily be adapted.

Incidentally, their kids seem to be smart enough to avoid getting run over by the trams (tourists are another matter).

Also, they do a much better job of adhering to their schedules, and I'm not convinced we have the managerial and operational talent to do as well. In Switzerland, by far the best, it is common for your routing to be on a train connecting to another train, connecting to a bus, then a boat, and perhaps a tram. And the times allowed for you to make the transfer are shockingly short to an American, yet since they are so serious about sticking to their schedules, it works.

As far as the death of Cleveland, if it loses most of its residents, that will just free up land for business use, and because the infrastructure around here is either in Cleveland, or directed toward Cleveland, I think as Cleveland loses residents, it will gain jobs. The days when a company could locate in the exurbs with cheap land and abundant parking will almost certainly end when people can no longer afford to drive as much as we do now. Why would a company with any foresight locate in Strongsville, for example, when to do so would limit them to hiring people from Strongsville and selling to people from Strongsville; it would make far more sense to locate in Cleveland when public transportation becomes the norm, and draw your workers and customers from a much larger pool.

If this is what the future holds, it makes perfect sense to start building a better public transport system now, and if that includes a rail line through Lakewood (that also serves Lakewood), it would, I think, be a benefit to Lakewood. But I think without more reliability, it would be a waste.

Incidentally, I think Lakewoodites should not be sanguine about the prospects of Cleveland going belly-up. In many senses, Lakewood is a parasite that draws its sustenance from Cleveland. Many of the people I know work in Cleveland; few work in Lakewood. Our cultural institutions are largely in Cleveland. Our airport is in Cleveland. If Cleveland were to die, Lakewood would be a parasite without a host, and that would likely be fatal to us also.

woah,

let me specify a little more of the Callentine plan (once agian - all this WAS sent in e-mail form to RTA).

...given the recent trend in housing prices, the city and RTA should start an aggressive process of buying up the properties either to the south or to the north of the existing lines. once the area is cleared there will be more than enough room to put in side by side tracks, elevated just enough to allow underpasses at every intersection. With the extra room the city can also go back and install sound barriers (in the form of sold construction or tree-scaping) to elimate some of the downside of more frequent traffic.

is the plan perfect, no, but I don't understand why it wouldn't work.

and while I can't speak for anyone else, I know I would use the extended rapid line at least a couple of times a week.

Hi,
Mr. Callentine, would we lose many benefits if this line ran along/over I90? We already have given up the land there. It's already a noise problem (and in the richer burbs sound barrier walls have been put up).

It would be good marketing for people stuck in their cars in traffic to see a train speeding by beating them home. A constant reminder that there is a better. faster, cheaper way to get to work and back. A station could be placed at W 117th with people movers (like at larger airports) to connect to the Rapid Station and local bus service.

I don't see how this train is going to turn Lakewood into Petticoat Junction. But I'm having fun imagining who in Lakewood is which character from that show.

Mr. Callentine, would we lose many benefits if this line ran along/over I90?

who would it be serving in that location? The existing red line already cuts relatively clost to both 90 and then southbound 71.

the main service goal of a rail line is to be accessible to those who would like to use it. if you have to take a bus or car to get to the station to take the train, you've missed your target rider.

the existing railroad tracks run parralell and directly between two of the most heavily used bus routes RTA has (55 and 26). that puts it within a range that hundreds (if not thousands) of people already feel comfortable walking to use public transportation. Rail travel is more dependable and faster than even the express bus service, so I don't think it's a stretch to think that the line would be heavily used.

a line along I-90 doesn't hit nearly the same size population or demographic as the Lakewood route would.

I also don't understand why there would be such an aversion to the expansion of services. the buses that I take are cram packed with people, and the shoreway and I-90 aren't getting any more lanes. So why wait until traffic comes to a complete stop before creating another option?

Hi,
Who would be serviced? The people that want this, the x-burbs. I thought this rail line is being built to service the x-burbs. Hi-speed, quick turnaround from x-burb to downtown. How many stops would this line have in Lakewood? On Petticoat Junction, you just stand by the tracks and wave for the train to stop and pick you up. That would be most convenient for the people you speak of that likes to walk to their current bus stop. If this train is going to spend 30 minutes passing through Lakewood and picking up riders then those poor soles that live in the x-burbs are going to be riding a train that averages 2 mph through Lakewood.

I thought Lakewood was going to have 1 stop. Is that correct? If we just have 1 stop then people are going to need to either walk a long way to the station or they will jump in their car and drive to the station. Once they are in the car they can probably get to I 90 quicker than anywhere else in Lakewood. Or, we can have several small commuter buses drive the corridors picking up riders and dropping them off at the station.

Look, I don't ride the rapid. I don't take the buses. I'm not going to be taking this train unless it, like my car, sits patiently out front waiting to take me where I want to go. I'm a vegetarian. I'm already carbon-neutral. If everyone was also a vegetarian the World would be just fine. Gee, why didn't Al Gore tell you that Inconvenient truth? I digress. Regardless, I still want to do all that I can to help save the World more. This train isn't the answer. Neil Young's Lincvolt is a more effective solution for the USA. So, what does Lakewood want this train to do for them? Do we want it to cut Lakewood in 2? Do we want it stopping at each cross street (I was going to count them but there are too many for me at this hour) to pick up passengers? Is this train useful between Clifton and Detroit but useless at I90? At what price is that added benefit? How much property tax does the city and our schools lose forever if we tear out a house on each side of the tracks to expand this thing as you suggest? Rather than expanding the tracks between Clifton and Detroit, I'd be for ripping them out and putting in a nature walk/bike trail. Then people like Mr. Liston could ride his bike through Lakewood easier and not be risking live and limb on our busy corridors.

We recently lost a lot of our bus service when RTA cut down on the number of runs for each route. They cried "No money".

Until RTA is cleaned up or dissolved there can be no servicing of any more light rail than we already have.