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Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:11 pm
by Jeff Dreger
the thing that gets me is that on the one hand she wants to brand herself as the "hockey mom" and pads her resume with the fact that she's the mother of five... she wants to trot out her son and tell everyone about how he signed up for the military ("please talk about that" she seems to say - "please write about that and ask about that") but then when it comes to her pregnant daughter it's 180-degrees and "the family has no relevance to anything" and "that's none of your business"
Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:29 pm
by Valerie Molinski
There are so many things in your post that I want to comment on that just made me want to shoot steam from my ears and laser beams from my eyes.
The fact that the homemaker was technically unpaid also led some to conclude that it was a less important function.
My mom was a home maker and raised six kids. She ran the house and we never saw my dad because he was working 24/7 to pay for all of us. That, and he was a workaholic. The work my mom did was priceless and I completely recognize its value. It was also those types of moms who pushed us out of the house to get an education so we would not be beholden to our husbands and that we can be an 'equal partner' in the marriage.
I work because it makes me happier and I got an education that I want to use. I could stay home but I recognize in myself that I am not 'built' for it and my entire family is a lot happier for it. So my husband and I both make money so we can spend time as a family equally. There isnt a huge disparity in our house over who is making the $ and who is running the house and raising our kids. We are doing it pretty equally. That is one advantage of a two income household.
The conservatives that I know generally recognize the value of a woman who chooses to be a homemaker; the liberals that I know are surprisingly vicious in condemning that belief.
Well, I dont know what liberals you know, but I am one and haven't met anyone that feels that way. The whole Feminist movement wasnt about getting women out of the kitchen and into the workforce... it was about the choice. The choice of whether you wanted to get an education and stay home or get an education and work outside the home. I, for one, am grateful for that choice daily. I do not look down upon home makers. I respect them for what I am not and I hope that they are doing the same. But I will tell you, I've been judged plenty for working outside the home by other mothers, or returning to work after three months of leave. It's a two way street.
Further, I think we don't yet know the affect of having our children raised by other people.
I'm not having my kids raised by others. They are both in daycare full time and they are not being raised by others. My husband and I are raising them. Daycare is merely enhancing them. They learn to play and share with other children, they interact with others on a personal level on a daily basis, and they have become better children for it. Their lives aren't so insular that when confronted with the world, they fold up shop and run. I love my daycare and the impression they are leaving on my children's lives is priceless. And this is in addition to the people they are becoming as my husband and I raise them.
The economic pressure of two-earner couples makes it very hard for the traditional family.
What's traditional anymore? It seems like two working parents is the norm, honestly. And to many of us, there is no pressure. It is all about choice. We have decided to live a certain way and desire to give our children a certain lifestyle, which requires us to both have incomes. That was our choice. Had one of us wanted to stay at home, we would make completely different choices and decisions to that end. And furthermore, you'll notice that I am not saying "I would stay home." Because, why couldn't my husband have that choice? He could stay home as readily as I could. It doesn't need to fall on the wife's shoulders to stay at home. The 50's are over... and he makes better cookies than I do.
more comes from women who feel a little bad about working rather than raising their children, and are jealous that she seems able to do both.
I've said it before, but women are each others' own worst enemies. I don't feel bad about her suceeding in doing both. Hell, I know how hard it is. But I still cannot get over the idea that you are proffering that if a woman is working, she is obviously not raising her children. I find that idea both sexist and antiquated. So if a man works, he is not active in the raising of his children? Or is it just when women work?
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:44 am
by David Lay
The NYTimes' Frank Rich weighs in on McCain's speech and Palin's vetting process:
http://tinyurl.com/5dg5f8
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:31 am
by Bill Call
Will Brown wrote:My concern is that we have largely bought into the idea that a woman who chooses to be a homemaker is a failure, and the economic pressure of two-earner couples makes it very hard for the traditional family.
I think a lot of women (and men) would rather stay home, raise the kids, run the household, join the PTA, join the garden club, run the church charity and build a community than work at the local Wall Mart.
I think your are right on in saying that it was economic pressure that is putting pressure on the family. Part of that failure is self induced and part the result of social pressure. Personally I think most people don't have careers they have jobs and that a job at home is as important (or more so) than the typical job outside the home.
Sarah Palin has become the lightning rod for liberals who talk about liberated women when they really mean liberal women. It galls them to think that the first female vice president will be be a conservative, pro-life, wife with five kids and a shotgun.
If everything in her personal and professional life were the same except that whe was a liberal those who are agin her would be for her those who are for her would be agin her.
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:29 am
by Danielle Masters
Bill one small problem, speaking for myself and my friends that I have spoken with (all of whom are stay at home soccer moms and PTA members) we don't like her politics. We don't like the thought of someone who is pro-life, pro-war, and uber religious, we could care less that she shoots moose and has five kids and is a hockey mom. Some of them are Hillary supporters but my friends that are pro-Hillary are the most anti-Palin which to me says we/they care about the issues not the fact that she shares the same sex organs. I don't see my friends caring about her personal life, we don't like herpolitics.
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:41 am
by Bill Call
Danielle Masters wrote: We don't like the thought of someone who is pro-life, pro-war, and uber religious,
What does it mean to be pro-life?
What does it mean to be pro-war?
What does it mean to be uber religious?
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:42 pm
by Danielle Masters
To me each of these mean...
pro-life= the desire to overturn Roe v Wade
pro-war= desire to continue the war regardless of the economic cost to our country.
uber-religious= desire to push right wing Christian values on the rest of the nation. As a Mormon I have several times in my life come up against "Christians" who have accused me because of my religion of several things including not believing in God and I worry about people not being tolerant of other views. I also see them as having a desire to invade private lives of people not limited to being anti gay rights, anti freedom of choice in abortion, pro religion in schools (prayer/creationism/book banning) and the belief that we have a God given right to oil and the belief that since God directs the fate of this country they should do what God wants them to do.
I see McCain (remember guys HE is the one running for President) as pandering to the religious right, he has changed from a moderate to super conservative and I wonder what he is willing to do just to gain power and to keep it.
I see nothing wrong with being a religious person at all, I just worry that some people allow their religions to dictate public policy and that is wrong because this is a nation of many different religious and non-religious views and I see the Republican party pandering to the religious right and that just worries me. I think it is very possible to be a religious person and still be a politician but that is not what I see McCain doing.
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:43 pm
by sharon kinsella
Bill you know very well what those terms mean.
I might not like your statements about most things but I know you're not stupid.
Valerie - I concur, we fought to be able to determine our own lives and definition of family.
But I would like you to stop buying that women are each other's worst enemies. The fact of the matter is, too many people buy the lies they were raised with and the corrupted information they receive through the mainstream media.
When it comes down to it, not all women believe or want the same things. We just need to understand it's okay to determine different paths for our lives and support each other's point of view.
Hard lesson for many to learn, that's all.
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:45 pm
by Danielle Masters
Bill just curious did you ask me to explain what those issues mean because you think us moms are only capable of repeating talking points? Because we aren't, we understand how these issues impact our lives, we aren't just parrots. And many of us are insulted that the big reason Palin was picked was to get our votes, we won't just vote for a candidate simply because they are a woman.
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:40 pm
by Valerie Molinski
But I would like you to stop buying that women are each other's worst enemies.
Trust me when I tell you that I dont 'buy' it because I have been spoonfed this by the media or whomever else.
I have seen it daily. At work, in my personal life. We women do judge other women the harshest for decisions made relating to family and careers. It happens all of the time. I've seen women at work who are the first to condemn for you making different choices as they have, and ready to stab you when you turn around. It's a man's world already and I don't need to be trading jabs with other women so they can get ahead with men. I won't play that.
And I do not find myself galled at all by Palin or her accomplishments. I am just as opposite in my personal beliefs. I am personally glad to see a woman sharing that stage, but she's the wrong person (not woman) for me. I think it is great McCain chose a woman- I simply think he chose the wrong woman. A woman would be a great asset to the White House but I would never vote for McCain/Palin as I stand on the complete opposite side of all of her views .
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:47 pm
by Valerie Molinski
Palin: wrong woman, wrong message
Sarah Palin shares nothing but a chromosome with Hillary Clinton. She is Phyllis Schlafly, only younger.
By Gloria Steinem
September 4, 2008
Here's the good news: Women have become so politically powerful that even the anti-feminist right wing -- the folks with a headlock on the Republican Party -- are trying to appease the gender gap with a first-ever female vice president. We owe this to women -- and to many men too -- who have picketed, gone on hunger strikes or confronted violence at the polls so women can vote. We owe it to Shirley Chisholm, who first took the 'white-male-only' sign off the White House, and to Hillary Rodham Clinton, who hung in there through ridicule and misogyny to win 18 million votes.
But here is even better news: It won't work. This isn't the first time a boss has picked an unqualified woman just because she agrees with him and opposes everything most other women want and need. Feminism has never been about getting a job for one woman. It's about making life more fair for women everywhere. It's not about a piece of the existing pie; there are too many of us for that. It's about baking a new pie.
Selecting Sarah Palin, who was touted all summer by Rush Limbaugh, is no way to attract most women, including die-hard Clinton supporters. Palin shares nothing but a chromosome with Clinton. Her down-home, divisive and deceptive speech did nothing to cosmeticize a Republican convention that has more than twice as many male delegates as female, a presidential candidate who is owned and operated by the right wing and a platform that opposes pretty much everything Clinton's candidacy stood for -- and that Barack Obama's still does. To vote in protest for McCain/Palin would be like saying, 'Somebody stole my shoes, so I'll amputate my legs.'
This is not to beat up on Palin. I defend her right to be wrong, even on issues that matter most to me. I regret that people say she can't do the job because she has children in need of care, especially if they wouldn't say the same about a father. I get no pleasure from imagining her in the spotlight on national and foreign policy issues about which she has zero background, with one month to learn to compete with Sen. Joe Biden's 37 years' experience.
Palin has been honest about what she doesn't know. When asked last month about the vice presidency, she said, 'I still can't answer that question until someone answers for me: What is it exactly that the VP does every day?' When asked about Iraq, she said, 'I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq.'
She was elected governor largely because the incumbent was unpopular, and she's won over Alaskans mostly by using unprecedented oil wealth to give a $1,200 rebate to every resident. Now she is being praised by McCain's campaign as a tax cutter, despite the fact that Alaska has no state income or sales tax. Perhaps McCain has opposed affirmative action for so long that he doesn't know it's about inviting more people to meet standards, not lowering them. Or perhaps McCain is following the Bush administration habit, as in the Justice Department, of putting a job candidate's views on 'God, guns and gays' ahead of competence. The difference is that McCain is filling a job one 72-year-old heartbeat away from the presidency.
So let's be clear: The culprit is John McCain. He may have chosen Palin out of change-envy, or a belief that women can't tell the difference between form and content, but the main motive was to please right-wing ideologues; the same ones who nixed anyone who is now or ever has been a supporter of reproductive freedom. If that were not the case, McCain could have chosen a woman who knows what a vice president does and who has thought about Iraq; someone like Texas Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison or Sen. Olympia Snowe of Maine. McCain could have taken a baby step away from right-wing patriarchs who determine his actions, right down to opposing the Violence Against Women Act.
Palin's value to those patriarchs is clear: She opposes just about every issue that women support by a majority or plurality. She believes that creationism should be taught in public schools but disbelieves global warming; she opposes gun control but supports government control of women's wombs; she opposes stem cell research but approves 'abstinence-only' programs, which increase unwanted births, sexually transmitted diseases and abortions; she tried to use taxpayers' millions for a state program to shoot wolves from the air but didn't spend enough money to fix a state school system with the lowest high-school graduation rate in the nation; she runs with a candidate who opposes the Fair Pay Act but supports $500 million in subsidies for a natural gas pipeline across Alaska; she supports drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Reserve, though even McCain has opted for the lesser evil of offshore drilling. She is Phyllis Schlafly, only younger.
I don't doubt her sincerity. As a lifetime member of the National Rifle Assn., she doesn't just support killing animals from helicopters, she does it herself. She doesn't just talk about increasing the use of fossil fuels but puts a coal-burning power plant in her own small town. She doesn't just echo McCain's pledge to criminalize abortion by overturning Roe vs. Wade, she says that if one of her daughters were impregnated by rape or incest, she should bear the child. She not only opposes reproductive freedom as a human right but implies that it dictates abortion, without saying that it also protects the right to have a child.
So far, the major new McCain supporter that Palin has attracted is James Dobson of Focus on the Family. Of course, for Dobson, 'women are merely waiting for their husbands to assume leadership,' so he may be voting for Palin's husband.
Being a hope-a-holic, however, I can see two long-term bipartisan gains from this contest.
Republicans may learn they can't appeal to right-wing patriarchs and most women at the same time. A loss in November could cause the centrist majority of Republicans to take back their party, which was the first to support the Equal Rights Amendment and should be the last to want to invite government into the wombs of women.
And American women, who suffer more because of having two full-time jobs than from any other single injustice, finally have support on a national stage from male leaders who know that women can't be equal outside the home until men are equal in it. Barack Obama and Joe Biden are campaigning on their belief that men should be, can be and want to be at home for their children.
This could be huge.
Gloria Steinem is an author, feminist organizer and co-founder of the Women's Media Center. She supported Hillary Clinton and is now supporting Barack Obama.
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:34 pm
by sharon kinsella
I read that yesterday - Gloria is wonderful.
She's always so clear and succinct.
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:49 pm
by sharon kinsella
Believe it or not, I do know a lot about women in Non-Trad - I worked with, for and was the third member of Hard Hatted Women of Cleveland. I think that they are now 30 years old.
I came on board with them when the Women's Law Fund was suing the Cleveland Fire Department for their testing procedures.
See back then, in the stone age, their weren't women firefighters and police. There weren't women in the trades and women in managerial and other professional jobs like engineering and architecture.
I was on the Vertical and Horizontal Construction committees monitoring contracts involving state and federal funds. That was at the request of our then governor Dick Celeste. Dagmar, our first lady at the time, used to think it was brilliant to put me everywhere because I didn't back down and wasn't afraid of anyone. I'm still not.
I worked at WomenSpace on their Non-Trad training project.
Also ran the National Job Problem Hotline for the 9to5 National Association of Working Women. I talked to over 65,000 working women over a period of 5 years. This was at the time of the Hill-Thomas debacle and the hotline was the only visible and successful (thank you very much) project of it's kind so I was quite a media star. We were able to help facilitate passage of the Civil Rights Amendment of 1990 and the Family Medical Leave Act.
I did all this while raising three kids as a second mom.
By the way I know Gloria and many more.
I have never posted all of this anywhere because I general travel under the wire. But there it is.
So I do know.
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:02 pm
by Stan Austin
Sharon--- Good post. I can't add anymore to your impressive job and family biography so I'll just let your words speak for themselves.
Stan
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:44 pm
by Will Brown
[quote="Valerie Molinski"]There are so many things in your post that I want to comment on that just made me want to shoot steam from my ears and laser beams from my eyes.
Well, that is the dimmest laser beam I have ever seen.
[quote="Valerie Molinski"] My mom was a home maker and raised six kids. She ran the house and we never saw my dad because he was working 24/7 to pay for all of us.
Try to stick to facts; if your father worked 24/7 that would mean you never saw him, yes?
[quote="Valerie Molinski"] There isnt a huge disparity in our house over who is making the $ and who is running the house and raising our kids. We are doing it pretty equally. That is one advantage of a two income household.
I never said there should be a disparity over who is running the house and raising the kids. You apparently think that both parties' working is necessary to reach equality in running the house and raising the kids. Don't try to put your words into my mouth.
[quote="Valerie Molinski"] Well, I dont know what liberals you know, but I am one and haven't met anyone that feels that way. The whole Feminist movement wasnt about getting women out of the kitchen and into the workforce... it was about the choice. The choice of whether you wanted to get an education and stay home or get an education and work outside the home. I, for one, am grateful for that choice daily. I do not look down upon home makers. I respect them for what I am not and I hope that they are doing the same. But I will tell you, I've been judged plenty for working outside the home by other mothers, or returning to work after three months of leave. It's a two way street.
The feminist movement doesn't hesitate to try and imply that all women share their beliefs. When they take action against a company for not having enough female workers, they cite statistics showing the number of women in the area; not the number of women in the area that want to work outside the home. Political actions use the same misleading figures. All special status groups advocate in this manner.
[quote="Valerie Molinski"] I'm not having my kids raised by others. They are both in daycare full time and they are not being raised by others. My husband and I are raising them. Daycare is merely enhancing them. They learn to play and share with other children, they interact with others on a personal level on a daily basis, and they have become better children for it. Their lives aren't so insular that when confronted with the world, they fold up shop and run. I love my daycare and the impression they are leaving on my children's lives is priceless. And this is in addition to the people they are becoming as my husband and I raise them.
We obviously disagree on whether one who places their children in daycare at the earliest opportunity is in fact raising them. I suspect you are just blowing smoke when you describe what your children do on a daily basis. Since you aren't there, you can hardly speak with authority as to what they do. The best you can do is report what the caregivers say they do, and hope they are telling the truth. I suspect the lesson learned by most children in daycare is to dump Mom in a nursing home at the earliest opportunity, as looking after her would interfere with their work.
I won't even get into what happens when the kids are too old for daycare; but many are latchkey kids, unsupervised in the house at an age when a lot of kids do foolish things.
[quote="Valerie Molinski"] What's traditional anymore? It seems like two working parents is the norm, honestly. And to many of us, there is no pressure. It is all about choice. We have decided to live a certain way and desire to give our children a certain lifestyle, which requires us to both have incomes. That was our choice. Had one of us wanted to stay at home, we would make completely different choices and decisions to that end. And furthermore, you'll notice that I am not saying "I would stay home." Because, why couldn't my husband have that choice? He could stay home as readily as I could. It doesn't need to fall on the wife's shoulders to stay at home. The 50's are over... and he makes better cookies than I do.
One hopes he makes more sense than you, too.
If you read my initial posting carefully, you will see that I defined traditional family, and decried that our greedy society more and more often abandons that in favor of the me first attitude that iyou reflect. I have no problem with a father staying home and raising the kids and keeping the house while the wife works. In fact my sister and her husband did just that, but not without complications. First, I suspect my sister doesn't like it, as she always introduces him as her "househusband" which I think is a dig; I've never heard a man introduce his wife as a "housewife". Second, their son has had a lot of troubles, and I suspect that he lost respect for his father (I don't know if he also felt abandoned by his mother) because, whether we like it or not, teen aged boys will ride someone who has a working mother and a homekeeping father.
Actually, I think working husbands who don't value the work of a homekeeping wife should spend a few weeks switching positions; I think most of them would not be able to do what their housekeeping wifes do on a daily basis.
[quote="Valerie Molinski"] I've said it before, but women are each others' own worst enemies. I don't feel bad about her suceeding in doing both. Hell, I know how hard it is. But I still cannot get over the idea that you are proffering that if a woman is working, she is obviously not raising her children. I find that idea both sexist and antiquated. So if a man works, he is not active in the raising of his children? Or is it just when women work?
Well, now you've shot your most emotional bullets: sexism and antiquation.
Any argument that offends you is sexist, even if it isn't. And just because an argument doesn't jibe with the changes you advocate it is antiquated.
Well, the argument that most men weigh more than most women does not mean the arguer, or the scale is sexist; it means they are realists. And the argument that the sun rises in the east, while old enough to be antique, does not mean that the argument, or the arguer, is antiquated.
I would also take exception you your selfish argument that you and your husband should be free to do whatever you want. That would fly if you lived on an isolated island, but when you live in a society, and demand benefits from that society to support your chosen style, and produce children that may (or certainly may not) be a burden on that society, then I think is is fair that the society put curbs around what you can and cannot do. For example, and I don't mean to imply that you are a child abuser, the sad fact is that there are parents that sexually abuse their children, and I wouldn't want to live in a society that tolerated such behaviour.