The Observation Deck

First off the only reason it would take you far to long to earn a million dollars the legal way is because you lack the drive, ambition, risk seeking attitude that so many Americans lack.

sorry to burst your bubble, but, the only reason I'm not a millionaire currently is due to the fact that I spend far too much time with my family and donate most of what I can to my church and several community programs.

Being a millionaire isn't my personal goal. However I believe my point is still valid as you yourself admit - with drive and ambition, you can become a millionaire, the same applies to becoming a citizen of the U.S. With drive and ambition anyone can become a citizen. Therefor, allowing anyone to try to do so illegally is crap.

Holy crap I can not fathom the stuff we could get done if we got over our fear of everything non American and had billions of dollars more to boot.

I don't fear things non-american, I don't think I could stand to live in a place like Lakewood if I did. I only despise people who break the law to get what they want, primarily because they lack the education, will power, or patience to obtain it the right way.

Every law is not right, but breaking a law just because you don't agree with it isn't justifiable either.

Third you are afraid all these people are going to bankrupt the country? To that I say You're kidding right? Some people take the stance that we should deport all the non legals. That would bankrupt the country. Stephen I apologize in advance if I take your stance on the war the wrong way. But that is what is going to bankrupt this country.

Oh, and by the way, nice try. This isn't a thread about the war on terror. Are you trying to suggest that if we were not at war, then the illegal immigration problem wouldn't cost us as much money? Or does this equate to your tacit approval of our using military troops to guard our borders?

Are you sure your accusation of our hatred of all things "non-american" isn't just a projection for your guilty subconscious hatred of all things american.

Bret Callentine wrote:Or does this equate to your tacit approval of our using military troops to guard our borders?

[sarcasm]I think it would be far cheaper to line the borders with land mines than to have our troops out there in force.[/sarcasm]

No I am not trying to bring the war into this thread. I am simply trying to display our mismatched priorities. There are many things that need to be done to improve the immigration system. I think that nearly half a trillion dollars we have spent on this war could be put to much better use here at home.

No I do not feel any subconscious guilt for not thinking to highly of this country. America is not high on the list of things I hold dear anymore and I have no guilt in saying that. I will not stand and pledge allegiance to anything until this country gets backs to it's core values. (insert cliché of the day here )

Jim DeVito wrote:No I am not trying to bring the war into this thread. I am simply trying to display our mismatched priorities. There are many things that need to be done to improve the immigration system. I think that nearly half a trillion dollars we have spent on this war could be put to much better use here at home.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Exec.htm
Have you ever read this?
As important as replacing rusting bridges is, life changed after 9/11... forever.

The New York Stock Exchange (NYSE), the American Stock Exchange and NASDAQ did not open on September 11 and remained closed until September 17. NYSE facilities and remote data processing sites were not damaged by the attack, but member firms, customers and markets were unable to communicate due to major damage to the telephone exchange facility near the World Trade Center. When the stock markets reopened on September 17, 2001, after the longest closure since the Great Depression in 1929, the Dow Jones Industrial Average (“DJIAâ€Â

Emma Lazarus said it best:

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Amen, lady.

Or maybe someone need to erase it off the statue, just in case someone might take it seriously.

The immigrant issue in America is a mixed blessing for this country. Like every generation in America, there are those that have been here a while and those that are new, eyes blinking in the glare of what America has to offer. It is currently the Mexicans but seriously, how many generations can you go back before your forerunners were "aliens" to these shores? One generation? Two? A dozen?

I have to agree that waving "costs" in people's face is a bit disingenuous. The "war on terror" in Iraq isn't what is protecting these shores. I have no doubt Homeland Security is stopping one plan after another but I sure bet they are wishing they had some of that Iraqi dough to throw around. But the "cost" of $20 billion is a bit hard to swallow, since so many businesses would love to keep it on the hush how much they...and in the end, us...are saving by hiring illegals to do the work others don't want. And probably for wages others don't want. I am not saying I endorse this but I think Costs have more to consider than simply one output.

The system has problems, to be sure, but the sweat of the immigrant brow...legal or otherwise...is what this country has continued to be built upon, for good or ill. Simply looking to shoo them away or, as our more hot-blooded citizens wish, shoo-t them away won't stop the flow. Fix the system. And yes, get us out of Iraq. That money could pay for health care for millions of uninsured, could help schools, could pay for actual homeland security, fix bridges, etc. Instead, it is doing much of that...over there. Priorities. C'mon, even most Republicans are admitting to this.

Phil Florian wrote:
The immigrant issue in America is a mixed blessing for this country. Like every generation in America, there are those that have been here a while and those that are new, eyes blinking in the glare of what America has to offer. It is currently the Mexicans but seriously, how many generations can you go back before your forerunners were "aliens" to these shores? One generation? Two? A dozen?

I'm perplexed. This country was not built on illegal immigrants. But time after time it's called the immigrant issue - as if it can't be done legally. I agree, there is too much government and the process could be streamlined if the representatives would focus on first upholding current law, then coming up with alternatives to make becoming a legal easier. As the thread states, what part of illegal don't you understand?

I have to agree that waving "costs" in people's face is a bit disingenuous. The "war on terror" in Iraq isn't what is protecting these shores. I have no doubt Homeland Security is stopping one plan after another but I sure bet they are wishing they had some of that Iraqi dough to throw around.

The cost thing was unfortunately brought up and is now becoming the new mantra (as it always does) because taking care of ourselves with domestic spending is arguably more pleasant than fighting enemy insurgents on their turf. There are human costs which are also part of the mix. 3000 involuntary lives in the WTC, 4000 voluntary US soldiers and tens of thousands throughout the conflict areas. If we pack up, without Iraqi people ready to defend themselves, that number could turn into millions.

Oddly, you are neatly separating out the war on terrorism away from homeland security protection. I think most world governments understand that they are totally connected. So I disagree that capturing Al Qaida operatives and information in the theater of battle is disconnected from protecting us. I truly don't think people like yourself understand how big this is. The world changed on 9/11 - and yet short term memory rules the day - as if we ignore it, it will go away. I really do encourage you to read the 9/11 commission report. Lot's of historical context and the finger pointing well distributed.

But the "cost" of $20 billion is a bit hard to swallow, since so many businesses would love to keep it on the hush how much they...and in the end, us...are saving by hiring illegals to do the work others don't want. And probably for wages others don't want. I am not saying I endorse this but I think Costs have more to consider than simply one output.

I agree the priorities are messed up. The real problem is making it easy for these folks to work legally. Period. As for work nobody wants, I wish the penal system would get creative and instead of harboring serious criminals in giant training facilities for weightlifting, drugs, gangs and sodomy, get them out in the fields doing work (not simple dope smokers and crack head types, but rapists and assaulters). Where there is no agriculture, have them sift through landfills separating recyclables from organics. Oh well, different subject.

The system has problems, to be sure, but the sweat of the immigrant brow...legal or otherwise...is what this country has continued to be built upon, for good or ill.

Legal is the only thing that counts. There are plenty of illegal things built/bought/consumed in this country. The "immigrant brow" indeed sounds so noble, but how about the gangs and serious career criminals here from all over South America? It is an insult to all the people who went through the process to become citizens legally.

Simply looking to shoo them away or, as our more hot-blooded citizens wish, shoo-t them away won't stop the flow. Fix the system. And yes, get us out of Iraq. That money could pay for health care for millions of uninsured, could help schools, could pay for actual homeland security, fix bridges, etc. Instead, it is doing much of that...over there. Priorities. C'mon, even most Republicans are admitting to this.

Hmm, I did not actually picture it so easily. But now that you mention it, the funding for Iraq could be converted into cash - say hundred dollar bills, and just like the Joker in Batman, Hillary could distribute it to the masses from parade floats. She's already got the look pretty well covered with the phony smile.

Nobody is trying to shoo away people who want to be in our country legally accept for our overly bureaucratic government processes. Yes fix the system, but don't ignore and not bother enforcing the law that already exists. If we want a ton more money in the federal coffers, go to a fair tax that taxes all goods and services. Force the underground economy from drugs and other non-taxed areas to kick in. It would pay for plenty of things... including evil clown floats if necessary.

First of all...evil clown float. Fantastic!

I'm perplexed. This country was not built on illegal immigrants. But time after time it's called the immigrant issue - as if it can't be done legally. I agree, there is too much government and the process could be streamlined if the representatives would focus on first upholding current law, then coming up with alternatives to make becoming a legal easier. As the thread states, what part of illegal don't you understand?

The history of America is one of immigration, legal or otherwise, and various ways the US has endorsed it and supported it while at the same time it tried to stop it or control it. Which puts us square in the current day where the right and left hand of the government argue to stand still.

Oddly, you are neatly separating out the war on terrorism away from homeland security protection. I think most world governments understand that they are totally connected. So I disagree that capturing Al Qaida operatives and information in the theater of battle is disconnected from protecting us. I truly don't think people like yourself understand how big this is. The world changed on 9/11 - and yet short term memory rules the day - as if we ignore it, it will go away. I really do encourage you to read the 9/11 commission report. Lot's of historical context and the finger pointing well distributed.

I suppose this is actually a discussion for another thread, but I am neatly separating because they are neatly separated. Insurgents aren't terrorists, yet that is mostly what we are fighting in Iraq. I truly don't think people like yourself (to hoist your phrasing) understand that. Yes, Al Qaeda operatives are showing up in Iraq...why not! It is chaos there and now that there isn't a megalomaniac dictator running the country there, they can run wild. But mostly what we are dealing with are insurgents. Most arrests of Al Qaeda...and there are gobs of them...are happening all over the world in the actual global war on terror. Yes, leaving Iraq right now would be bad but not because of "terrorists" but because of insurgents and impending civil strife cause by our dismantling and not adequately replacing the folks in charge. But this really is moot to the discussion, other than to point out cost differences.

As for work nobody wants, I wish the penal system would get creative and instead of harboring serious criminals in giant training facilities for weightlifting, drugs, gangs and sodomy, get them out in the fields doing work (not simple dope smokers and crack head types, but rapists and assaulters). Where there is no agriculture, have them sift through landfills separating recyclables from organics. Oh well, different subject.

I think this is an interesting thought and aren't some states already getting back to this? Again, as you said, this is fodder for another discussion but I think the biggest criminal thing is that we have a penal system that doesn't reform folks and even those that do, they are released into a culture that won't ever forgive them. By this I mean, even if there are some jobs that a con would want to do and may even be good at, he or she is likely not to be allowed to work there due to a prior conviction, even the 'dope smokers and crack head types.' But, another day, another discussion.

I think on some parts we agree. The system is poorly laid out and haphazardly run. It is confusing, time consuming and in the end simply ineffective. That we agree upon. I guess where we differ, really, is the way to treat said immigrants while they await their chance to become legal. Like common criminals? Or like the huddled masses yearning to breath free?



But back to evil clown floats... the presidential candidate that rides out in one of those bad boys at the next 4th of July parade gets my vote, period.

As one who has been involved for many years with the Native American community, you may rest assured that they have an entirely different perspective as to who might constitute an illegal immigrant.

As the saying goes, from their point of view, they've been fighting terrorism since the 1400's.

Perspective is everything. We face different perspectives because we often come from differing premises.

It would be well for all of us to step back and work on positive, rather than political solutions in this land- that seems so filled with hate and divisiveness these days. Think about it, if you will.

People so often speak, with nothing to say. One day, if evolution is real, we may find ourselves without ears; for having not used them for so long...

On one hand it is very sad Mexico has 60 to 80 million more people than it had 60 years ago.

On the other hand, the reason our schools are "failing" is mostly because we insist on graduating so many of the kids. in the past, if they weren't good enough or too poor, they could simply drop out and do the work illegal immigrants are doing today. Yet the schools functioned without such high administrative and security costs, and so did American society in general. yay.

Considering much of the work illegal immigrants do pays more than your typical retail or mcjob does, I would say this hasn't been worthwhile structural change.

Deleted an accidental double post. Tends to happen when a short response turns into a long response and the application times out

Gary Rice wrote:As one who has been involved for many years with the Native American community, you may rest assured that they have an entirely different perspective as to who might constitute an illegal immigrant.

Very good point. They did not have the technology and the masses to fight off a hostile horde. It is one of natures cruelest examples of man's inhumanity to man.

Among thousands of others.

For instance read about Genghis Khan and his descendants just as a starting point = http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/Pla ... storyid=aa

As the saying goes, from their point of view, they've been fighting terrorism since the 1400's.

Well, not all of them. There are some casinos making billions on reservations and they aren't fighting anyone (other than unruly drunks). And don't forget the brave men who helped win world war II as the Navajo Code Talkers. I have to believe there are millions of happy and content Native Americans that balance against the bitter. Yes there are those living in the past, but why bother? Philosophically, I understand what you're saying. Realistically, it's a canceled check.

Do you want to play what-if? What if the natives of the Americas had really been from China? And their command over gunpowder was far advanced over that of Europeans. We would not be having this little chat.

What if Hitler had gotten atomic weapons? Sprechen sie deutsche? "I love what you've done with your Swastika arm patch! Who would have thought of using blue velvet!"

What if the African slave trade wasn't endorsed by tribal chiefs on the coast of Africa? Do you think whitey could have just kidnapped those people as efficiently as the chiefs making a buck? They would have gotten their white ass slaughtered if the chiefs didn't want some bling bling. Yep, politically incorrect, but historically not taught in any junior high school I've ever heard of. Obviously a subject with only one perspective...

Perspective is everything. We face different perspectives because we often come from differing premises.

Well put. I would suggest you make it stronger than perspective and add history to the mix. It's said we will repeat history when we don't learn from it. Believe me when I say this is not coming from arrogance. I fear history lessons way more than mere perspective.

Perspective requires wisdom, whereas the history of man demands conquest... of something. It is not ruled by wisdom- but is ruled by might.

Mahatma Gandhi indeed kicked out the British with a non-violent strategy, but considering the circumstances, the British got off easy. The partitioning of India into Muslim (Pakistan) and everything else mixed (India), proved out to be tens of thousands killed. It is not exactly rosey today.

It would be well for all of us to step back and work on positive, rather than political solutions in this land- that seems so filled with hate and divisiveness these days. Think about it, if you will.

I agree that solutions trump rhetoric and negative critique. It is very easy to find fault --but very hard to find answers and execution against a strategy, no?

People so often speak, with nothing to say. One day, if evolution is real, we may find ourselves without ears; for having not used them for so long...

Evolution is real. God is probably as real as evolution, it's just that we can only comprehend one of these concepts with our small human brains. If we don't use these small brains, we will find ourselves without bodies.

Just sayin'...

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Interesting and thoughtful posting Dustin.

I believe that you are one who tries to walk the Red Road.

And that, my friend is a Native American compliment. It says that you are trying to walk the Good Path.

Thanks for your kind words. Never cease to express the thoughts of your heart. From this action grows great wisdom.

With all of the conviction that I can express to you, from the perspective of one who has fought for civil rights for nearly fifty years, I must tell you that even though some people in a particular persecuted group might appear satisfied with their lot, or even happy, the memories and traditions and stories and fears remain deep within each of their hearts.

It's been often said that History is written by the victors. At the same time, the vanquished never really are vanquished. That is only an illusion.

As with your slave trade example, if there is a money trail, then guilt may be found with many people. Greed and exploitation know no boundaries.

As to bitterness? It's not a question of bitterness that we must consider. Instead, it is a sure and abiding faith and understanding that Grandfather (God) has a plan for all of us. To understand the present, we must however, walk in the Past and in the Future; all at the same time.

The wise among us know this.

As to your what-if game? Hopefully by now, you realize that there must have been reasons that History turned out as it did. In the end, we expect that Good will triumph over evil, and that Love will overcome hatred.

To expect less would be unthinkable.

With all of the conviction that I can express to you, from the perspective of one who has fought for civil rights for nearly fifty years, I must tell you that even though some people in a particular persecuted group might appear satisfied with their lot, or even happy, the memories and traditions and stories and fears remain deep within each of their hearts.

Agreed. Hard to think of too many groups that have not been persecuted either themselves or through a few degrees of separation. That which does not kill you makes you stronger. My only simple thought to this thread is that illegal immigration should not be confused with having civil rights. That is where the premise of doing good breaks down, because some are saying that our laws should not be obeyed and that the civil rights of law abiding citizens can be trampled because the "system" for legal immigration is broken. Fixing the system is what these politicians should be concentrating on, not the rhetorical gibberish we keep hearing.

It's been often said that History is written by the victors. At the same time, the vanquished never really are vanquished. That is only an illusion.

Yes, I agree. Interestingly, though these groups have persecution in common, they don't seem to intermingle or relate to each other. The modern Jew and African Americans for example both have a terrible heritage of slavery.

As to your what-if game? Hopefully by now, you realize that there must have been reasons that History turned out as it did. In the end, we expect that Good will triumph over evil, and that Love will overcome hatred.
To expect less would be unthinkable.

Great expectations indeed. For goodness to triumph we must learn from the past and hold true to a bigger view. Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.

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Dustin:

Great post, I love your experience quote.

You are also quite perceptive to note that even among persecuted groups, there is often little unanimity of purpose.

In the early'60's, many groups combined in the Civil Rights struggle, but by the late '60's many of these groups had fractionalized away from each other.

Why is this? I can think of many reasons. Idealism tarnishes over time. Power is always an issue. Money, of course, can enter in, as well as the ever-present personality issue.

It seems that just about any time that we (the human race) start to get it right, we split apart. It's the Tower of Babel thing over and over.

Still, hope springs eternal, I suppose. We are probably better now that 100 years ago in many ways in our treatment of others, as well as with the general betterment of many aspects of the world.

The problem of the illegal aliens is unfortunately, not a new one. Nor, I suspect, will it go away soon. It will take real thinking and political wisdom to figure out what to do now. I wonder if we have that kind of wisdom in Washington these days? If history is any guide, I am not so sure.