The Observation Deck

Bret Callentine wrote:

JOB wrote:If you can give me one example on why I should trust these guys with anything, I would love to hear it.

well, for starters, because he was voted into office, twice, by the necessary majority of electoral votes.

and as far as the rest goes, I'll simply say that I disagree with your interpretation of what is "evil", and just because something doesn't match with your version of the truth, doesn't necessitate that there was a "lie".

Saddam broke nearly every point of the signed peace treaty. War justified, end of story.

Has it gone perfectly, no, but that make us neither "evil" nor "thugs".

This is what makes it so hard to be an independent (to say nothing of the plight of a full blown republican) in this forum. How am I supposed to respond to a challenge that has very little basis in provable fact.

Face it, both of our arguments are based mostly on our own personal beliefs. I for instance believe that the President and his staff are acting in the best interest of the nation. You BELIEVE he is not.

Please try to refrain from throwing around allegations as facts.

To revive MY earlier post. If you want to prove he's lying or evil, or unethical, than by all means, lets go to trial. the Hague, Capitol Hill, Judge Judy. Wherever! Put up or shut up. Either prove it or move on.

The real reason that Bush will not be brought before any type of tribunal is because deep down, you know you've got no case. Rhetoric - yes! An actual case - no.

JOB wrote:I understand the problems the right have

The right doesn't have any problems other than consistently having to listen to incessantly paranoid rantings of the left.

Brett

I will let the vote slide for the point of this discussion.

But the war, the reason going to war was made up and a lie. Everyday more and more truth surfaces. where is the outcry for Cheney misuse of his powers?

Sadaam, could have done nothing without the help of the USA. Placed him in power, worked with him. Sold him chemicals and bio-weapons and did the targeting for him.

Even the invasion of Kuwait falls firmly on Bush Senior.

I believe the first Gulf War was a slap on the hand for going to far.

Look at the testimony for going to war then. It all hinged on one girl talking about babies being yanked out of incubators and thrown to the ground. Others pulled out of heart and lung machines, etc. The fact surfaced after the start of the war. The girl had not been in Kuwait for 7 years and was the daughter of a man working for the Ambassador from Iraq, coached by a PR firm. This is not made up. If you choose to let it slide, you only help destroy this country.

My problem is when you take a step back and look at the BIG picture it is so easy to see. If you go moment to moment its is petty differences. this is enhanced by the bad news coming so fast we cannot focus, and the help of the Republican owned media choosing Anna Nicole over the dead soldiers.

Bush's plan for Iraq goes back before the election. Bushes falling numbers after the election are propped up as binLadin, on the CIA payroll from Reagan's day runs planes into the World Trade Towers, making GWB the WAR PRESIDENT, from then on it was all secret, misinformation and outright lies that have got us to where we are today. Alone in the world.

Was all by this by accident? Is GWB the most lucky president with unlucky news? Hardly. This group is crazy like a fox. To look the other way sells out this country and our soldiers. something I am incapable of doing.

I lived through Vietnam, I know what thugs and villains the military industrial complex is. I know that the infamous World Bank, Tri-Lateral Commission, Bilderbergs and others reap huge sums of money from the act of war where ever it pops up. A war that never ends is a dream come true for these enemies of the US and the world.

Again to turning a blind eye to history, is stupid.

This comes from a person that had hope for this administration.

Edit was this - I will let the vote slide for the point of this discussion.


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I must be confused...

Are you insinuating that 9/11 was orchestrated by the administration in response to lagging polls?

Charyn Compeau wrote:I must be confused...

Are you insinuating that 9/11 was orchestrated by the administration in response to lagging polls?

Charyn

As that is a hot button issue, for now I would prefer to leave it at. This administration is extremely lucky with bad news.

I could go into items that are published right from the Bush Administration, but why light that fire now.

I believe, this administration as have others have been capable of anything. This is why I am not thrilled at the strengthening of FEMA, that was created to quell riots and be used for martial law, not for natural disasters.

(will be offline to see the Monet Exhibit, thanks Heidi)

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As that is a hot button issue, for now I would prefer to leave it at. This administration is extremely lucky with bad news.

Very well - enjoy the exhibit. It is phenomenal.

Holy crap! exactly what drugs did you use in the 60's Jim?

Why stop there...

Kennedy assassinated in Texas. Coincidence? Or was that Bush Sr. on the grassy knoll?

Armstrong on the moon. Or was the whole thing filmed on a sound stage on the Bush ranch in an attempt to use the space program to boost profits through fossil fuel based rocket propellant?

UFO crash in Roswell. Or was it a downed missle shot from the Bush oil fields aimed at the hoover dam in an attempt to cut off "Sin City" from it's much needed power supply.

How come we've never seen Barbara Bush and Fidel Castro at the same place at the same time? Is this a Clark Kent/Superman thing? That facial hair is probably just a prop.

And you just know that W used some sort of secret CIA technology to make sure hurricane Katrina turned north at just the right time, so that it would miss Texas

You're scaring me Jim.

Bret Callentine wrote:Holy crap! exactly what drugs did you use in the 60's Jim?...
You're scaring me Jim.

Most of them.

Bush is scaring me.

I would rather talk about this in very serious terms.

It is not based on anything but GWB's actions and words.

No conspiracy BS, just a look at his actions and common sense.

Unfortunately in America today with over half the country on meds,
and another 25% blinded by single thought, critical chops have all
but disappeared.

What makes you think he didn't.

America has a long history of killing our own for money, power, and other ridiculous reasons.

FWIW



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JOB wrote:I would rather talk about this in very serious terms.

any time you're ready to be serious, I'm ready to listen.

But come on man, using the type of causality that you seem to flock toward, you can sum the whole thing up as being the fault of the British. If they hadn't gone and let us rule ourselves as a country, none of this would have ever happened. Or perhaps it was all a part of Christopher Columbus' evil plans. Are you seriously suggesting that prior administrations specifically put these people into power BECAUSE they would end up doing what they are doing?

I believe that we are indeed cleaning up the mess that was created by past global policy, but to make the leap that it was done intentionally, knowing well what the consequences would be IS INDEED A CONSPIRACY THEORY. And not a very plausible one at that.

Ann Coulter uses the same "logical" strand when she shows the time line during the Clinton years to suggest that every time he was being scrutinized, he ended up shooting a missile at something or someone. So should we believe that as well?

JOB wrote:critical chops have all but disappeared.

be careful throwing those stones, big guy. The logical fallacy your making is in causality. If B happens after A, A did not necessarily cause B. Just putting the two together proves nothing.

want another example?

JOB wrote: lived through Vietnam, I know what thugs and villains the military industrial complex is

This is a logical fallacy of association. Living through the Vietnam era may have given you some insight as to what thugs and villains the M.I.C. WERE, but that was forty years ago, you can't prove what something is TODAY, by pointing out what it was YESTERDAY unless you show considerable proof that at least a large portion of the extenuating factors are also unchanged. This is like saying, you took drugs in the 60's, therefor, you're still a druggie today.

The sixties are over man, it's time to pack up the lava lamp and 8 tracks and move on.

Don't stop being skeptical, but leave the grandiose preconceived assumptions at the door.

Bret (sorry for the extra t I was adding)

I have no doubt that missile to Libya were to get the smoke going in another direction. I would agree with Ann on this.

Absolute Power corrupts absolutely.

The lesson learned from Vietnam is that administrations will lie, cheat and steal for things as simple as a date with Jill St. John, or a reelection. Those two things cost America millions and 35,000 or so American lives, and the Vietnamese, Laos, Cambodia as much as 1,000,000 civilians.

Now if we pull back to the start of the war, The Military Industrial Complex, cost America a billion or more and 70,000 American lives and an estimate 2,500,000 civilians. To make a couple bucks.

This is the lesson we should have learned. Dwight D. Eisenhower's words should ring in our ears daily. "Beware of the Military Industrial Complex" So should the words of Woodrow Wilson, "I have sold my country out to a few individuals." Or the words of Slick Willy, "You become the most powerful man in the free world and you still have to answer to a handful of people." Why the numbers a few and a handful? They match up to nothing in America.

We could also learn much from WWII, when America knew full well of the attack of Pearl Harbor, and moved old boats into easy targets, and let soldiers die, so they could get into the war "legally." The Japanese ambassador sitting in the White house to announce they were declaring war, for 5.5 hours. While they waited to hear of the bombing to express our outrage.

The lessons we need to learn is the democracy is an illusion. That they serve the people, just another illusion. The dream of the Monopoly Men, if they could bankrupt America, things would be much better for them, especially The World Bank.

To 9/11 a brief intro. The Wolfowitz doctrine outlines the war with Iraq, and the idea to create a complete and full battlefield in the MidEast. All that was needed was a reason to go in, something big. 9/11 happens, off we go into Iraq, no wait, damn it, media points out that Usama is in Afghanistan. That is OK, we have some business there. A pipeline for natural gas from the Caspian Sea, and the replanting of the poppy fields.

Just lucky?

Bret, the rest will take a little longer. I will put it together tonight, that will underline, either a plan, or this administration is incredibly lucky with bad news.

Personally I would hate to think these guys are bumbling through this. I prefer to think they have a plan, even if I hate the plan.

I have always said this war make all the sense in the world for oil security, and the future. I just hate the lieing and miss use of the military, and the thought we should own stuff that is not ours.

FWIW

I hate to break stride from the history lessons. I feel an obligation to state an objection and concern about Mr. Boron's post to Mr. Farris.

Respect for a person’s military service does not grant a carte blanche to Mr. Boron for issuing intimidating personal threats on the LO Deck.

Mr. Farris aired a legitimate concern for liberty and the President’s recent usurpation of posse comitatus.

In response Mr. Boron’s declared – “What would I do if martial law were declared? I'd go Kent State on your ass.â€Â

Ken

I agree with you that personal threats of physical violence are inappropriate in a civil discourse, irrespective of the issue under discussion. But, I would submit to you, that perhaps you miss a larger and more important issue demonstrated by the attitude and language which is chosen by Mr. Boron.

Mr. Farris had expressed concerns over what would occur in the event martial law were declared. Mr. Boron's response serves to not only validate Don's concern, but points out the dangers associated with those whose solution to disagreement is a resort to threats of violence. There is a palpable and demonstrable need, as demonstrated by Mr. Boron's posts and attitude, to address the concerns raised by Mr. Farris. While attempting to shut down the discussion with a "Jarhead" mentality, Boron has in fact, validated the need for dialog and confirmed the reality of the concerns. There are those in our midst who are more than willing to resort to physical violence to silence discourse......precisely the concern raised.

And then, there are also the sociological and psychological side issues.....

Jeff

Bret

As I was putting my info together this weekend I was reminded of a online project that does it better. It catalogs timelines using over 700 different mainstream media sources.

It creates a timeline of events so that all may better understand the timelines of event and get a larger picture. It allows the reader to draw their own conclusion.

One thing, I would like you to keep an open mind on how this administration has stuck 100% to the plans drawn up before 9/11. Then use your common sense.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

The complete timeline contains 2,763 documented moments in 9/11
That can be seen at: http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline

Then you tell me.

You seem pretty sharp and resonable.


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What an astonishing thread.

While I hope Mr. Boron will show more restraint in his style of communication, I do hope he continues to post.

Point of Clarification - Associating the May 1-4, 1970, situation in Kent and the Kent State Campus with Martial Law is not accurate. Governor Rhodes never, I repeat, NEVER declared "a state of emergency" which folks could/would have considered a form or martial law. The Sunday/Monday protests were not illegal. (Kent's mayor did declare a state of emergency and exact a p.m. curfew - ineffective regarding Monday's daytime rally.)

In this situation, it didn't even take the declaration of martial law to have Companies A and C, 1/145th Infantry and Troop G of the 2/107th Armored Cavalry shoot unarmed protesters.

JOB wrote:You seem pretty sharp and reasonable

Well thank you.

I looked over the time lines. pretty intense stuff. goes well in keeping with everything I learned when I read the 911 commission report cover to cover.

What do I see when I review this information?

I see Government acting like government

I see politicians acting like typical politicians

I see a plethora of average American citizens placed in extraordinary situations, burdened with impossible decisions made using the best available (yet wholly inadequate) information.

but nowhere do I see more evil than that which has come from trying to affix blame and cast judgment based on hindsight, speculation and such a broad avoidance of taking into account the grand imperfections of human nature.

Bret

With the move towards secrecy from Day one of this administration.
Lets not forget one of the first things done by GWB was to seal all of his father's presidential papers and other for 50 years, and his own for 50 years. This has only been done once before. The JFK assassination.

With the rush to grab the election.

With the single mindedness of Iraq, Iraq and Iraq,

With the Wolfweicz documents.

With the constant misrepresentation of the truth.

I still maintain.

It was brought on by these guys OR they are the luckiest group I have ever found for bad news at the perfect time.

I would give them,, one, maybe two, maybe three, four, five, six coincidences, but 2,736!

But when it works nearly perfectly to documents written before 9/11 a sane person with critical thinking has to say, hmmmmmmmm.

I supposed you went over how Usama and AlQueda was allowed to drive away from Tora Bora in a convoy of 1,000 cars at night?!

You had no problems with the ISI, started by the CIA as being the group that funded the attack on 9/11?!

You have no problem with the constant feed of misinformation about the paymaster of 9/11?!

You have no problem with 976 people arrested for 9/11 and all released without any conversation?!

No problems with GWB having ground to air missiles on his hotel on the night of 9/10. The only time it has ever been done?!

This smells of Pearl Harbor to me.

That makes this group complicate.

Would you give this slack to Bill Clinton?

I know I would not.


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I would give them,, one, maybe two, maybe three, four, five, six coincidences, but 2,736!

The odds on winning the lottery are something to the effect of 80 million to one. If someone matches all the right numbers then it must be a conspiracy. right?

Give me a break, 90% of the time line items are just normal occurrences. And the ones that aren't are either the results of poor policy decisions (of both past and present administrations) or cases where all the information is not necessarily at hand.

The real difference is that you feel you deserve to have that information. And I feel confident that our government is a much better judge of what should and should not be publicly disseminated.

Just because he had documents sealed doesn't mean that there aren't hundreds of people out there that know exactly what is there. HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE. Democrats, Republicans alike.

It comes down to a matter of trust. Either you have it, or you don't. And if you truly have as little trust in this country's government as would be required to believe this speculation, I would suggest moving to Canada or possibly the Bahamas.