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Re: Let's disect this turkey: Where Skindell went wrong

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:45 pm
by todd vainisi
The fight for Dennis was truly about what he cared most about. Corporations hurting communities, and the public trust of elected officials. Dennis lost his Mayorship not bankrupting Cleveland, but standing up to keep Cleveland Public Power in the hands of the community. To this day, it provides lower cost power to the community.
I was just reading an old article about how the mafia tried to assassinate Dennis at a parade because of the power company deal and other city contracts that he shook up! Even though I sometimes thought the things he floated in congress were a bit kooky, I knew his heart was always in the right place. My wife used to scream out "I love you, Dennis!" at every 4th of July parade. Losing Dennis was a bigger blow to Lakewood than this hospital will be, imo.

Also, I didn't know Skindell had his hands so full during the election cycle. I think it was a huge mistake spending so much time on SLH - people who were already going to support him and surely there were other lawyers that could have worked on the legal team while he campaigned. How better to help SLH than win the mayoral race? Should have left the lawsuit to others to deal with.

Also Mike Summers, as Jim has said, has an absolutely terrific personality and great presence. I interviewed at Summers Rubber for a web development job many years ago. He treated me so well during the interview process, I still felt good about it even though I didn't get the job. I've had other people tell me that same thing about interviewing with him. He makes a great impression. Hopefully he can use this election as an opportunity to change the way he does some things as mayor and find ways to be more inclusive and transparent.

Re: Let's disect this turkey: Where Skindell went wrong

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:19 pm
by Paul Porter
Mike, why the heck do you have to keep being insulting?

The election's over... Easy, turbo - pump the brakes.

Maybe I could say I care about having a facility where the community can access emergency care and outpatient medical care close to home. I don't see the need for inpatient care in Lakewood when many other hospitals are available close to us, but that may be informed by my upbringing in a rural community (Mount Gilead) with a small hospital that isn't equipped to deal with major medical emergencies (severe cases are typically flown to Columbus for care), and where ambulance rides from local farms can routinely take over 15 minutes.

Lakewoodites are fortunate to have an updated hospital close by (Fairview) and a major trauma center just over 5 miles away (Metro). My son was delivered at Fairview, and we had a great experience.

Hospitals are expensive. Aging facilities are even more expensive. Reimbursement rates are dropping, and care models are shifting towards outpatient treatment. Why am I painted as some uncaring SOB for examining those facts and voting my conscience?

The Trump thing was a huge insult. As an avowed Democrat, there isn't much worse you could call me.

Re: Let's disect this turkey: Where Skindell went wrong

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:28 pm
by Michael Deneen
Paul Porter wrote:Mike, why the heck do you have to keep being insulting?
What insult? He's a popular guy, and this is a very direct analogy. When campaigning to eliminate something, spin that you care about it.
Try to have it both ways.
Trump, for example, loves to say how he has lots of Hispanic workers and customers.
In a feat of wishful thinking, he says he's going to win the hispanic vote in the general election.
Paul Porter wrote:The Trump thing was a huge insult. As an avowed Democrat, there isn't much worse you could call me.
If Donald lived in Lakewood, he would LOVE the Clinic's plan.

Re: Let's disect this turkey: Where Skindell went wrong

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:02 pm
by Ahmie Yeung
Jim O'Bryan wrote:
Pasquale Manno wrote:
Then there is the fact that people under 40 do not care about the hospital at all.

.
aHEM! I'm 38 and I care very much about the hospital, as does my 38 year old husband, our children who are old enough to understand what's going on, and many of our peers, particularly parents and planning-to-become parents. PLUS those of us who care about natural birth since Lakewood Hospital was the first hospital in Northeast Ohio to become Baby-Friendly Certified. I've had TWO "Save Lakewood Hospital" signs in the front yard of our double for MONTHS.

Knock it off with the ageist generalizations, it's not the way to build anything except resentment.


Ahmie

Re: Let's disect this turkey: Where Skindell went wrong

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:19 pm
by todd vainisi
Ahmie, that's cute that you think you aren't included in the over 40 crowd at 38, haha.

Also, were you really planning to have a baby in that hospital - it's one of the worst maternity ward facilities around. Even back in 2000, my wife had natural childbirth in one of the excellent bathtub things at St Johns (a feat we repeated 9 years later for our second child). So claims that lakewood hospital did it first are sort of moot. You want the best, not the first, right?

Re: Let's disect this turkey: Where Skindell went wrong

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:36 pm
by Ahmie Yeung
todd vainisi wrote:Ahmie, that's cute that you think you aren't included in the over 40 crowd at 38, haha.

Also, were you really planning to have a baby in that hospital - it's one of the worst maternity ward facilities around. Even back in 2000, my wife had natural childbirth in one of the excellent bathtub things at St Johns (a feat we repeated 9 years later for our second child). So claims that lakewood hospital did it first are sort of moot. You want the best, not the first, right?
I've had 4 children and I'm actually expecting my 5th in June, thankyouverymuch. I'm also a sociologist and studied the regional maternity options as part of my Master's thesis. All of my children have been born 100% naturally, not even an IV. I actually only have the hospital as a backup, my eldest is the only one who wasn't born at home with a midwife. I see a doctor with priviledges for co-care during my pregnancies, in case I need to go to a hospital. SHE specifically told me during my earlier pregnancies that she recommended to her patients who are seeking a natural birth that they go to Lakewood Hospital, even if it meant driving DIRECTLY PAST Fairview, because they were Baby-Friendly in name only (this was the case at least as of 2012 my my 4th child was born). I have precipitous labors, which is a large part of my reason for planning to birth at home - I had all of one hour elapse between the contraction that woke me up at 2:50am and my 4th child's birth. I could not have made it to any hospital other than Lakewood, my child would have been born at the side of the road. And, for all the "oh it's only a 5 minute drive" BS - check Google Maps for directions and drive time. It's 10 minutes WITHOUT TRAFFIC from Lakewood Hospital to Fairview, so that's 10 minutes JUST DRIVE TIME assuming lights-and-sirens transport. Otherwise it's minimum 15 minutes, plus loading and unloading.

Lakewood Hospital does amazing work with how much they've suffered resource diversion for so long. They were doing waterbirths last time I was pregnant. They also were promoting kangaroo care. Their exclusive breastfeeding at discharge rates were enviable, not anecdotal.

Your evidence is anecdotal. Lakewood Hospital has a lower c-section rate than Fairview Hospital. We bought our house in eastern Ward 2, closing 2 weeks after finding out we were expecting our 2nd child (when I was only 29) BECAUSE of its proximity to Lakewood Hospital. Travel time to the hospital was actually the number one issue in where we chose to purchase our home, as my aging in-laws were moving in with us at the same time. We didn't want to have their care delayed by a train crossing if they were having a stroke, much less my access to care delayed during labor if the care was determined to be needed.

So, wanna try countering any more demographics with your anecdotals? I'm an actual trained researcher, you might want to up your game.



Ahmie

Re: Let's disect this turkey: Where Skindell went wrong

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:03 pm
by todd vainisi
My evidence isn't anecdotal. I didn't provide any evidence at all, haha. And I specifically said the facility, not the staff.

I also never said Fairview (which is used for all of your comparisons) was a good place to go Ahmie - our midwife told us she'd rather deliver us in a parking lot than in the Fairview ward. But she also didn't suggest Lakewood. Maybe she didn't have privileges there. :)

St Johns didn't ask her to have any IVs either. When it was time she got in the tub, I held her arms so she didn't drown, and she pushed out the baby. I think 2 aspirin afterwards was the extent of her medical care. The second one the midwife watched as my wife delivered her own baby most of the way - she even commented to the nurses standing by "Look at this - she's delivering her own baby". My wife had trouble breastfeeding the first time, and the nurses came many times to keep encouraging and helping her. So, anecdotal or not, our experience was real and natural childbirth was no problem for us in July 2000 at a hospital not named Lakewood, but still in our region. I'm also quite sure the midwife did many natural childbirths (and they didn't install that tub right before we got there for her to give birth in haha) at that hospital.

My wife checked out Lakewood Hospital and quickly decided it was not where she wanted to have a baby. It sounds like you did much deeper research than she did, but I think most women would prefer a modern facility with good sized rooms, and the midwife's recommendation (I suppose her experience would be anecdotal too) was more important to us than any paper study. You are the first person I've heard say they wanted to have a baby there. And yes, that's anecdotal on my part for sure!

Regarding your choice of housing - that sucks that you thought you were getting a home very close to the hospital and now it may be gone. Lucky for you, you live in a region overflowing with hospitals and virtually no traffic so even in this crummy case, you don't end up 20 minutes away or more.

I wonder what the demographic research would say about trusting/relying on a very old hospital to still be there many years later when there are other hospitals all around and specifically one that has been getting constant upgrades for 10 years very close by? Seems like common sense and anecdote might have suggested living near Cam's Corner.

I'm saying this all with a smile by the way. I have no malice even though you seemed riled up (I think it was mostly the "you are basically 40" comment though).

Re: Let's disect this turkey: Where Skindell went wrong

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:15 pm
by Ahmie Yeung
Yeah, the "you're basically 40" comment did not start you off in my good graces.

I've actually never birthed in Lakewood Hospital and don't intend to. My one non-homebirth was born in Virginia at a hospital-run birthing center not technically attached to the hospital, but the entrance doors were within 100ft of each other and the birthing center was more freestanding maternity ward than baby-friendly facility, it was unusual that I refused the IV and epidurals were the norm. I was attended with him by a CNM who was a former homebirth midwife, and there was this parade of strangers that kept pouring into the room to witness me giving birth while I was pushing, which I found distracting, disconcerting, and disrespectful. We moved back to Cleveland (my husband and I met at CWRU as undergraduates, I am a Parma Senior High graduate) when he was a month old, and moved to Lakewood shortly before his 1st birthday in 2005, then bought the house we live in now in November 2006.

After the ready availability of houses in which 3 generations could live together comfortably, the next biggest draw was the school system, so the Kamm's Corner area would never have made the grade with us. Walkability was also a major factor. The hospital was in the top considerations, particularly since my eldest demonstrated his lack of fear of heights by climbing a 6ft ladder we had out while doing some interior decorating a couple weeks before he learned to walk. He was carefully supervised while doing that, but it put us on alert to his daredevil nature (which hasn't changed much in the last 11 years, though it was his younger brother that necessitated our first visit to Lakewood's ER for stitches after a tumble down a short flight of stairs at 19 months old. The family joke is that my 2nd son's mortal enemy is architecture, he's injured himself via klutziness against household fixtures many times now (he's 8).

I am glad that you had such a pleasant experience at St. John's. I think that was the other hospital my doctor spoke highly of. It's not an option for me because it's too far for me personally - my labors go too quick from the point I realize it's "go time" and when the baby is born. With my 1st, my water broke at 4am, we determined it was time to leave home at 8am (planned non-home birth), I walked myself into the birthing room and he was born at 11:46am. My 2nd contractions got to the point I couldn't sleep through them around 4am, my water broke just after 7am and he was born at 7:17am. My 3rd was born in the caul after a similar labor to the 2nd but significantly shorter pushing phase (I was only consciously aware that it was push time for less than 2 minutes before he was born, the older 2 took about 20 minutes each). All the already-born kids have slept through the subsequent homebirths. We're lucky in that my in-laws are here if we really need to make a quick exit toward the hospital (tho my mother-in-law was working full-time until this past spring - she worked at Hugo Boss then turned 65 after the factory closed and before the new owners started calling people back, so it's not exactly surprising that she wasn't one of the ones called back). I've also had good friends who were labor supports for me through 2 of my homebirths, but none of them made it to my 2nd homebirth (3rd kid) due to how fast he came and the midwife almost missed the 3rd homebirth (4th kid) that was attended by a friend who was at the time working on her doula certification only because she decided to spend the night at my place when I said I felt like things were feeling "soonish" the evening before.

I love hearing that other families have had such empowering and individual birth experiences. Very glad for your family, and always happy to hear from others who have chosen a midwifery model of care. Perhaps you'd be interested in joining the still-embryonic efforts to bring a freestanding birthing center to Lakewood, come what may to Lakewood Hospital? Nickie Antonio and I have discussed the idea several times over the years. It won't benefit me directly (this is intended to be my last pregnancy - I feel that five is a sufficiently large pilot subject pool for my developmental/socialization process theory research. After all, Piaget based his theories on his pilot subject pool of 3 offspring, and he didn't even gestate them himself! ;) ). Over 50% of births in Ohio are paid for by Medicaid last I checked pre-ACA (aka Obamacare). Births at freestanding birth centers are MUCH lower cost care and generally have better breastfeeding rates, which futher saves taxpayer dollars through myriad ripple effects (improvements in many long-term health metrics for mother & child as well as formula costs via WIC to name just a few). Lakewood, culturally, is well suited to be home to such a facility. Sharing happy birth stories that don't involve epidurals and such helps other parents-to-be realize that they can do this, too. Oh, and I'm also a huge fan of waterbirth ;) My 3 homebirths all happened in a big circular pool I bought at Target for about $30. It *was* the proximity of the support at Lakewood Hospital that made my husband comfortable enough to support me in birthing at home (at least the 1st homebirth), and I worry that not being as near may decrease the confidence of other future expectant parents. Fear during labor increases pain, and being afraid of how long transport would require may be too much in the fear-tension-pain cycle for some parents, even with access to labor caregivers trained in emergency protocols as are available in a birth center. If Lakewood had had a freestanding birth center in 2007 when my 2nd was born, I may have chosen to birth there. My reasons for not wanting to birth him in a hospital had more to do with feeling like a sideshow freak - err... "training opportunity" to complete strangers who happen to be employed in that setting than anything else (other than becoming too precipitous in labors to get to a birthing room after handing off the kids to another responsible adult in the wee hours of the morning). The way that freestanding birth centers do things, my mode of birth would not be so unusual as to draw the audience of every not-otherwise-occupied staff member in the wing, so I would have considered it for my 2nd if it had been an option. I'm really tired of families not having options between homebirth and medical setting birth in the entire Cleveland metro area. I hear so many stories so often of birth processes that were disrupted in ways that had negative ripple effects on the family, and the disruptions were just because that's the routine of the setting not because of anything particular to the mother or baby. I was extremely blessed by the community support I had through my first pregnancy & early postpartum in Virginia, and feel called by that gratitude to pay that kindness forward.

Kids are home and wandering in & out of the room after a grandmother-supervised watergun fight (77 degrees after election day!?! O.o ). Sorry if this is wandering all over the place, highly distracted.

Re: Let's disect this turkey: Where Skindell went wrong

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:41 pm
by todd vainisi
I'm glad we have found common ground in the birthing experience - though you are braver than we were. I think that the birthing center is a great idea. I'm sure both my wife and I would like to support efforts to bring one to Lakewood.

Re: Let's disect this turkey: Where Skindell went wrong

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:00 pm
by Gary Rice
Common ground!!! :D

How I love those words, and how seldom they're seen, these days! :D

Time for a sing-a-long, with the world's first rock (1805) song!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Rock-a-bye baby.... :D

Back to the banjo! :D