The Observation Deck

Are there water towers around here? I had not noticed any. it was easier to see the one in sheffield lake because all of the buildings were under two stories tall.

I'm not a civil engineer. but I'm guessing water towers would provide a reserve of water and water pressure. for when the big mains and pumps are down for repair or replacement. there's room for one at madison park.

Stan Austin wrote:Shawn--- Your reaction to the situation is exactly the reason why those whose responsibility is to maintain infrastructure shy away from presenting the reality to the public.
Stan Austin

Help me understand, those responsible shy away from presenting the reality because if they did people would be angry that they are incompetent and can't maintain an infrastructure that we all depend on for basic services? So what are you suggesting that in order to get them to fess up to what's going on we shouldn't be upset and demanding more? I must be missing your point.

Shawn Juris wrote:

Stan Austin wrote:Shawn--- Your reaction to the situation is exactly the reason why those whose responsibility is to maintain infrastructure shy away from presenting the reality to the public.
Stan Austin

Help me understand, those responsible shy away from presenting the reality because if they did people would be angry that they are incompetent and can't maintain an infrastructure that we all depend on for basic services? So what are you suggesting that in order to get them to fess up to what's going on we shouldn't be upset and demanding more? I must be missing your point.

As one who works in a parallel utility, I find that your insults for those who operate and maintain these types of systems driven mainly by your ignorance of how the system (which operates 24/7 365 days a year) works. Furthermore, the speed at which the repair was made shows that these people are professionals.

As for those of you who are actually curious about the workings and shortcomings of the system I offer this:

The age of the system does play a role in the potential for a main break but is not the only factor. Different materials wear out at different rates. Other factors leading to wear are: flow rate, protective measures used (chemical and otherwise) or lack thereof, density of water based on temperature, scale buildup and pressure fluctuations. Pipe runs are inconsistent and weak areas in an individual stick of pipe may only become apparent when it fails.

When a pipe ruptures flow increases and water hammer dislodge scale from the side that pipe and surrounding pipes in the system. This scale is the brown discoloration you see coming from your taps and it contains iron as well as various carbonates (a reaction years contact with oxygen and minerals in the water.). Scale can discolor your clothes and adds a distinctly metallic taste to the water but is not directly harmful. A boil alert is issued because of possible biological contamination of the water when they shut the line down for repair. When the water is on the flow will be forced from the pipe but when the flow is off outside contamination can enter it.

Why do these pipes rupture? I would guess that water hammer plays a significant role in a high percentage of these failures. Water hammer happens when there is a sudden change in demand for water and the pressure dips then spikes. Many of you have probably experienced this at home when you abruptly shut of your water and you hear a loud bang. If you had a strong (but brittle) cast iron pipe moving a few tons of water a second through it you can imagine the damage that could be done by this.

Most utilities contract with companies to do surveys of their distribution system to check for leaks. In my industry cameras are used to view the condition of the sewers. The shear size of the system makes inspecting the entire system even in a decade impossible and extremely cost prohibitive.

As far as water towers go...As the system expands or demand increases more and more pressure is needed to push this water where you want it to go. A water tower 100' high will overflow when the pressure is in the line is 43 pounds per scare inch. If the utility has to maintain a pressure of 60 psi then these water towers must be taken off line because they will be over pressurized and will not meet water turnover requirements.

Sure there are problems out in the system but I don't think that these things happen maliciously. I would hope that if this was caused by a pressure swing that some protocol was instituted to prevent this from happening in the future.

It seems to me that those who complain about the cost of utilities complain even more when they don't have them. You can't have it both ways. A large break like this is relatively uncommon and hopefully two in a row are coincidental.

I must be ignorant then. Given that this system works 24/7/365 and has so much pressure on it, wouldn't an engineer be able to tell what the life expectancy of said material was? Am I to believe that any material is expected to last 110 years under such strain? This apparent policy of waiting to repair breaks rather than replacing them in advance is stupid. It's stupid in the same way that it would be a bad decision to wear your tires until their bald and blow out or not maintain your house on a regular basis and just wait until something happens. The belief that it's fiscally advantageous to wait until a break occurs would disappear if those in control of repairs were held accountable by those that they cost money. If the business that was next to this recent break was charging the Division of Water and the Sewer District for the loss of business income and every other business and individual that was affected did the same do you really think that they would just wait for the next main to break? If we took this approach to bridge repairs would anyone be defending it?
As far as complaining about the cost then complaining about the break, yes I do both. But I do so because they are related. We all pay either through the utilitity bill or taxes to have this infrastructure maintained. When breaks like this one and the one last year occur it shows pretty clearly that our money was managed poorly. It may not be glamourous but these things need to be kept up to avoid these situations that could have been prevented. They have a duty to maintain this stretch of pipe, they failed, that's called negligence.

Shawn Juris wrote:I must be ignorant then. Given that this system works 24/7/365 and has so much pressure on it, wouldn't an engineer be able to tell what the life expectancy of said material was? Am I to believe that any material is expected to last 110 years under such strain? This apparent policy of waiting to repair breaks rather than replacing them in advance is stupid. It's stupid in the same way that it would be a bad decision to wear your tires until their bald and blow out or not maintain your house on a regular basis and just wait until something happens. The belief that it's fiscally advantageous to wait until a break occurs would disappear if those in control of repairs were held accountable by those that they cost money. If the business that was next to this recent break was charging the Division of Water and the Sewer District for the loss of business income and every other business and individual that was affected did the same do you really think that they would just wait for the next main to break? If we took this approach to bridge repairs would anyone be defending it?
As far as complaining about the cost then complaining about the break, yes I do both. But I do so because they are related. We all pay either through the utilitity bill or taxes to have this infrastructure maintained. When breaks like this one and the one last year occur it shows pretty clearly that our money was managed poorly. It may not be glamourous but these things need to be kept up to avoid these situations that could have been prevented. They have a duty to maintain this stretch of pipe, they failed, that's called negligence.

Your example of a bridge or tires is simply wrong. It's more like a connecting rod bearing in your car's engine. When's the last time you or your mechanic checked that? They can last a million miles or spin in the first minute of operation. When you suspect a problem with that part you replace it. Otherwise you perform preventative maintenance such as changing the oil or filter.

The plants themselves have multiple redundant systems. The distribution system is a gridded system able to be rerouted while repairs take place (which is what happened.) You could start replacing pipe indiscriminately which is foolish or replace ones that you suspect are going to fail. Which is done each year with the finite money supply.

What do you think the cost of replacing 5000 miles of water main would be? Estimates are around $80 to $100 dollars per FOOT!

So let's see it will take an extra $2.3 trillion dollars to do this. The government can provide this to Cleveland. Oh wait, that money went to the corrupt financial and insurance companies when they pissed all their money away on derivatives and hedge funds.

Instead of investing in infrastructure we have burned the money on useless financial institutions over the past few decades and now we pay the price.

Thanks for proving my point.

Steve Hoffert wrote: Furthermore, the speed at which the repair was made shows that these people are professionals.

I whole-heartedly agree.

As technologies get developed further, such as GIS and remote pipe inspection, we'll be able to better assess the "real-time" condition of our water mains.

Considering the amount of work that it takes to get water to and from so many locations over such distances, I think the success rate of the CWD isn't too bad.