Calling all non-smokers and smokers

[Jim DeVito]

Maybe these places could get that rooftop patio Shawn is speaking of in another thread.

Now a lush green rooftop patio bar would be the kicker to get people to drive from all over to our town. Man, now I want to buy a bar just to build the most killer rooftop patio bar.

Now it should also be noted that the 5-10 people at the non patio bars are pretty much asking for a patio by standing out in front smokeing. I remember when the bar i frequent was building there patio the was not much trouble from the city to get it put up. What (besides space, some people just don't have it.) are the common obstacles to patios and how can we get past them for next summer?

[John Walsh]

Sorry, but I just don't buy the fact that non-smokers are responsible for the decline in bar and restaurant business. The economy is very tight right now and non essential spending is being reduced by everyone, I think the drop in business due to the economy and the smoking ban were an unfortunate timing coincidence.

My wife and I are not going out to eat nearly as much as when the ban was not in effect, and we don't smoke, it is a more matter of stretching the dollars.

By the way, are we to assume all smokers are staying home? Perhaps its the $4.50 or more for a pack for smokes thats keeping THEM away and reducing their spendable drinking and dining dollars, not the fact that they can't smoke anymore. Plus if they're staying away there is always carry-out!

[Brad Hutchison]

It's certainly a mix of factors, and I agree places sans patio are in a weaker position because of the ban, but a patio isn't some mythical panacea -- "if only we had a patio..."

The Mars Bar has plans to build a deck, but if they think that's their only competitive disadvantage vs. The Beer Engine, they're mistaken.

Still, Jim's original point is correct. Walk to some local establishments, use the gas money you save to buy a pint or a bite, burn the calories walking home. Say hi to your neighbors as you pass them on the street, meet some new people, discover a place you've never gone before...

[Todd Shapiro]

I think there is two distinct points to this thread the first AND MOST IMPORTANT as stated by Jim, Brad and others is go out and support your local establishments. My friends and I went to Madison Square to bowling alley last night and we were the only ones there (on a Friday night)!! Whats up with that? Jim is right that ATC and many other Lakewood bars and eateries serve a burger that is 500% better than anything at McDonalds and at a competitive price.
BUT please don't tinkle on my head and tell me it's raining!!!! For over a year I have read on this forum that preditory lenders and George Bush and driving the country into the next Great Depression, consumer confidence is at historic lows, commodity prices are at all time highs and the Cleveland area has way above the national norms in both home forclosers and unemployment. And now you wanna tell me that a few bars might be in danger of closing JUST because of the smoking ban. There were patio's before the smoking ban so I'll feel safe to assume that people also like to sit outside in the summer prior to 2007. I don't doubt for one moment that this what Jim is hearing from area business owner, but maybe they need to take a look in the mirror or a look at the business page before blaming the smoking ban for their struggles.

[Bryan Schwegler]

All I was doing is asking for those that supported the ban to now back up their words with actions.

To ask those bars to now, run specials or advertise more, or offer discounts is very, very, very disingenuous at best.

Time to put up or shut up.

Jim,
Please...I doubt every person who supported the ban promised to patronize these place more. I certainly didn't make that promise and I supported the ban. You are twisting the reality of the situation.

Businesses need to adapt to the times. If they don't, then they suffer the consequences. Any basic Intro to Business course will teach this very principle. It's up to the business to decide what that means, but just trying to do things the old way when the business environment is different is a recipe for disaster.

Three business I talking about do not "deserve to go out of business."

And who are these businesses? I can name a whole bunch that IMHO do deserve to go out of business. You really have no place putting down others opinions if you don't share specifics of what you're talking about.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Bryan

I am not lobbying for any change to the current law. I am not asking people to do anything they didn't say.

I am not asking all non smokers to eat food they do not want.

I am just pointing out that the landfall of diners, that many spoke of never materialized.

I am pointing out that many very good places to eat and drink are having hard times.

I am pointing out thatr those with patios seem to be doing much, much, better.

IF, I repeat IF you used better business, or said you stopped because of smokers, PLEASE support those businesses now. The smoking ban like it or not is hurting businesses that were not hurting before.

Could it be the economy, sure.

But those that can get through the ban, are cleaning up while others that are enforcing the ban are hurting.

Personally, I would never hope or wish closing on anyone. To think it came from a law that effected a long running business would seem illegal to me, but rules are rules.

Are you so sure you never mentioned that "business will even do better, I know I prefer smoke free environments"?

All I am saying is some good places are hurting. Food is just as good, service is just as good.

I am not putting down any opinions. I am asking people to keep their word. I understand in a world of millennium kids, that seems a bit harsh, however. I am not calling you a millennium kid either.

PLEASE support local establishments.

FWIW


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[Brad Hutchison]

I wonder what the separation is between patio and non-patio establishments in the winter...

[Stan Austin]

A snow fence?

[Bryan Schwegler]

Are you so sure you never mentioned that "business will even do better, I know I prefer smoke free environments"?

I'm sure I probably said that I prefer smoke-free environments, I always have. But, just because some hole in the wall bar or bar/restaurant that exemplifies the term "craptastic" is now smoke-free does not mean it's going to get my business.

Being smoke-free is one piece, but there are alot more to the puzzle.

All I am saying is some good places are hurting. Food is just as good, service is just as good.

I don't doubt that. However, I honestly think you're putting the blame in the wrong place. I am 99.999% certain the decline in their profits has more to do with the economy than anything having to do with the smoking ban.

PLEASE support local establishments.

I always try, but that local establishment needs to meet my needs and expectations. I will not feel guilty for buying my clothes at Banana Republic rather than Geigers nor will I feel guilty about preferring Target to Drug Mart.

However, there are also local places that I prefer to anything else.

[Bryan Schwegler]

I wonder what the separation is between patio and non-patio establishments in the winter...

Good question. For example, I would imagine Around the Corner still did better than a bunch of other places, even when you couldn't use the patio in the winter...the question is why? It's certainly not the smoking ban at that point.

[Richard Cole]

First - I fully supported the ban on smoking in public venues, for a whole host of reasons.

Second - as a 20+ year resident of Lakewood, I support local business as much as is posible.

The "put up or shut up" tone of the thread, is IMHO, misplaced.

[Brad Hutchison]

I wonder what the separation is between patio and non-patio establishments in the winter...

Good question. For example, I would imagine Around the Corner still did better than a bunch of other places, even when you couldn't use the patio in the winter...the question is why? It's certainly not the smoking ban at that point.

To be more specific, I suppose the question should be: How has the summer gap between patio and non-patio changed since the ban? Patio establishments have always had an advantage (at least in summer), regardless of the smoking ban. Has that gap widened since the start of the smoking ban? To what degree?

[Colleen Wing]

I agree 100% with Jim.

My best friend is an electrician and the people she works with don't go to bars after work hardly ever anymore because of the smoking ban. And they all make more money than they made last year. They just go home were they aren't treated like criminals. Believe me- I have been a college student and a working bar dweller- one thing for sure- I always had beer money.

The non-smoking, non-drinking fun killers want/ed the bars to go out of business because it isn't enough that they don't do it, they don't want anyone to do it.

I find it funny that some of the same people who don't want their personal freedoms taken away- ie. my dog isn't bother you- are the same ones who support/ed the smoking bans. The scientific proof and stats are equally proven-meaning they aren't.

Banning personal freedoms under the premise that can technically affect other people is a slippery slope.

BTW- There are a lot of bars and restuarants in Lakewood that have great food. The West End Tavern is the first that comes to mind.

[chris richards]

wow, the audacity of claiming that the smoking ban is the main reason business for bars and eateries is hurting, and claiming that a place with horrible service and food should still be supported because they offer carry out is unbelievable.

it's not about how walkable the city is. it's about how people get to and from work. sure would be nice if I worked in Lakewood. (or at all right now) perhaps then I would eat out more. or go out with friends for drinks in the evening.

this topic is so much more complex than blaming the smoking ban.

[Jim O'Bryan]

wow, the audacity of claiming that the smoking ban is the main reason business for bars and eateries is hurting, and claiming that a place with horrible service and food should still be supported because they offer carry out is unbelievable.
this topic is so much more complex than blaming the smoking ban.

Chris


I can't believe you would associae me and term term "audacity."



again.



OK let's revisit.

I get around in this town, and talk to many bar/restaurant owners. Some have patios, some do not. All to my knowledge drive cars and buy food. They do not live in a vacum.

This did not suddenly happen, nor was it the first time they mentioned it. I would have to believe that the problem got worse in warm weather when patios are open.

It is not your typical

Irish guy, "Hey how is business?"

Owner, "Terrible since that cigarette ban."

Irish guy, "Give me a beer."

This is the accumulation of comments over months that will soon see some potentially well known names close or sell. Before the spike in gas and food prices.

Now I could say so what?

But the fact is, these places on Madison and Detroit are nice places, with good food. Clean, friendly places. Their only crime "no patio." For decades these places served the community and gave to the community. Next month?

If we really believe empty storefronts are bad. Then we should be thinking good solid businesses closing that add to a community, even worse.

I was never expecting to get the blow back from the simple idea of IF you said you would frequent these places more often without smoke to CONSIDER taking one for the team.

I am watching a vibrant city, with really good businesses wilt and possible die. No we can blame smoke, no smoke, walkable, prices, crowd, etc. But at some point we will all look in the mirror and wonder.

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