The Observation Deck

The problem with Cleveland is fundamental, it has nothing to do with individual development projects.

Bad government and leadership, mostly self-deprecating beliefs by its citizens, and throw in a healthy dose of the fact we can't get over being a turn of the century "industrial" city mindset just continues to push true recovery away. No amount of development is going to help until the fundamental are changed.

I may get jumped on for this, but IMHO, Cleveland is too "blue collar" for its own good. There are some outstanding opportunities here, but we don't take advantage or promote them because of the boat anchor of industrialized jobs hanging around our neck.

Bright, talented people and companies do not want to locate in regions that have a "rust belt" mindset. Until we change that mindset Cleveland will continue to have problems.

A few years ago the era of making "convention centers" bottomed out. It became too hard to shout down the fact that most big convention centers built in the last 20 years overwhelmingly undelivered the bookings and incomes they were supposed to.

A Medical Mart isn't a convention center. The words used to describe it are pronounced differently. And they are spelled differently.

People who buy medical equipment are not like other people. They cannot read about the products in a catalog or online. Even if they are pretty much the same products you already have or an adjacent office has. They have to make a mini-vacation out of it. There have to be art galleries, theatres, casinoes, escort services, high dollar bars, and restaurants helmed by celebrity chefs.

It makes sense that Cleve-hoga is hiring an outside contractor to "operate" or manage the future medical mart. Because Cleve-Hoga can't manage shit. And if a visitor to the Medical Mart trips over their shoe laces or is shot by some random gun wielding screwball, they can sue the operating company before suing Cleve-hoga.

A lot of money is on the table. It will trickle up into kickbacks and campaign donations. These are the campaign donations it takes to saturate the public with repetitive mindless campaigning better than the repetitive mindless campaigning of upstarts and nonconformists. It will keep people with experience in office. we need experience to pass the bonds up to the feds when the medical mart doesn't deliver.

Bill Call wrote:...what if we had spent that $3 billion on making Cleveland part of the international world market instead of subsidizing sports star salaries...

Shawn Juris wrote:Isn't this the nature of the beast these days? I know that here in Lakewood we scoff at the audacity of places like Avon Lake, Solon or Westlake for having the nerve to give a business tax abatements or land to convince them to open shop but it's reality. It's a good question if there were other places in competition and honestly I don't know. In general though I accept this for what it is. For one it is a good idea. As Ivor said it attracts visitors to the area. While entertainment districts and major sports teams are fine and good they don't necessarily import revenue. They just move money from the residents to the sports teams, the bar owners and the parking lots. So this would import money... good. Second we've got to get past the pining for the steel mills and get on to something new. With the hospitals and research from CWRU this seems to be a good fit.
I also accept that this party who was negotiating my side as a taxpayer was a beauracrat and I've never expected them to be competent or have a tight grasp on the bottom line. We're also not exactly negotiating from a position of power at this point.
So now that its done what is Lakewood (private and public) going to do to use this to our benefit?

1) It's really difficult to offer tax abatements on land that's already built up.
2) If InvaCare doesn't sign on, fuggetabout it.
3) I'd love to see data on profitable convention centers.
4) Unless manufacturing happens here, the jobs created are short-term construction jobs and some sales jobs. Somebody has to hang out at the Mart.
5) You tell me about the wise decisions that County Commissioners have made over the past 20 years.
6) Let's not forget the whole renaissance and the bazillion jobs that Progressive Field and the Q were going to start.
7) I hope WalMart stays in business. I hope to work there as a greeter someday.

Dee Martinez wrote:Im a little skeptical about this too. Smells too much like the Rock Hall of fame. If the medical equipment industry needed a mart, wouldnt they have already built one? If you are manufacteuring MRI machines in Orlando why are you going to make your customers go to Cleveland to see it? Do hospitals and doctors offices really equip their offices all at once, like honeymooners in a new house?

Was there competition for this thing and thats why the tax dollars going to it?
Or is this something Cuyahoga County decided the medical industry needed? Someone smart needs to explain this to me (and obviously not just me)

Dee


Let's not stop at the Rock Hall, let's go to the Browns Stadium, Jacobs Field, the rebuild of the Convention Center, the I-X Center, The Great Lakes Science Center and a general frenzy and misrepresentation that flows all over as desperate people do desperate things, with little or no impact.

Ten or more years ago I rolled out the T-Shirt Museum as you would any large project. News releases, drawings of the buildings, etc. I got a call from the Cleveland Plain Dealer, who was ecstatic that anyone would even think of building a new museum in town.

http://tshirtmuseum.com

The people explained how they had helped to build the Rock Hall taking much of the credit that should have been given to BP America at the time. I was told it would be perfect on E9th near the Rock Hall. As I was feeling playful at the time I mentioned that St. Louis and Detroit was in the running. At that point the heat was ratcheted up and I was assured that millions in grants for studies could be had, and the entire city would love a t-shirt museum.

Now think about it. A museum filled with t-shirts? How fascinating that would be. Millions, no billions coming to Cleveland to gaze upon wall after wall of t-shirts! At no point did I let on it was a virtual museum online. With other calls, they wanted to release the illustrations with an article to help with getting all of the county behind it. After a couple days I could not take the general lack of critical thinking and called a friend and told him, it was a virtual museum, it was up and operational and a "real" one would not be built, ever. We both had a good laugh, though he thought the PD would not be as happy to be played.

It is this drunken non-thinking that always worries me. While I enjoy every project mentioned, and are glad they are here, none had even 1/10th the impact that was promised when sold to us.

Dorthy Fuldheim used to wonder about the sense of chasing the "tourist" dollar, when the money could often be used to make Cleveland, business friendly and more productive, for the citizens of the county as opposed to the weekend visitor.

I again question the wisdom of this project. I always saw it as a way to get funding to rebuild the Convention Center as opposed to a Medical Mart. I also question the wisdom of turning to the public as opposed to the Clinic for the funding.

Why does every project have to be sold as "will save us from..." The lies get old. Let's not forget we ourselves went through a "will change Lakewood forever..." as we now see the sister project empty out after a year, and now start to fall apart. As remember that one of the most strident supporters of the project now admit it would have bankrupted Lakewood years ago.

FWIW

ryan costa wrote:A few years ago the era of making "convention centers" bottomed out. It became too hard to shout down the fact that most big convention centers built in the last 20 years overwhelmingly undelivered the bookings and incomes they were supposed to.

I agree.

I don't know why the negotiations took so long. As near as I can figure out the discussions went something like this:

MedMart: We want the County to provide $800 million to build the facilty. We want to be paid $100 million to manage the facility. And, oh yeah, we want to keep all the revenue generated by the facility.

County: Uh, ok.

MedMart: Oh yeah, well we also want to be able to walk away from the deal without penalty if we mismanage the facilty and don't make any money.

County: Uh, ok.

For some reason that took 4 months. I wonder what the County is paying its negotiating team?

dl meckes wrote:

Shawn Juris wrote:Isn't this the nature of the beast these days? I know that here in Lakewood we scoff at the audacity of places like Avon Lake, Solon or Westlake for having the nerve to give a business tax abatements or land to convince them to open shop but it's reality. It's a good question if there were other places in competition and honestly I don't know. In general though I accept this for what it is. For one it is a good idea. As Ivor said it attracts visitors to the area. While entertainment districts and major sports teams are fine and good they don't necessarily import revenue. They just move money from the residents to the sports teams, the bar owners and the parking lots. So this would import money... good. Second we've got to get past the pining for the steel mills and get on to something new. With the hospitals and research from CWRU this seems to be a good fit.
I also accept that this party who was negotiating my side as a taxpayer was a beauracrat and I've never expected them to be competent or have a tight grasp on the bottom line. We're also not exactly negotiating from a position of power at this point.
So now that its done what is Lakewood (private and public) going to do to use this to our benefit?

1) It's really difficult to offer tax abatements on land that's already built up.
2) If InvaCare doesn't sign on, fuggetabout it.
3) I'd love to see data on profitable convention centers.
4) Unless manufacturing happens here, the jobs created are short-term construction jobs and some sales jobs. Somebody has to hang out at the Mart.
5) You tell me about the wise decisions that County Commissioners have made over the past 20 years.
6) Let's not forget the whole renaissance and the bazillion jobs that Progressive Field and the Q were going to start.
7) I hope WalMart stays in business. I hope to work there as a greeter someday.

1) Excuse. No reason that there can't be a tax abatement on the improved property tax. No reason why Lakewood can't play in this game and offer a business that comes to the city an abatement on the property, meaning inventory, equipment etc as well as the building improvements. Fine, leave the base tax the same but if the business is going to bring a boost to the economy, shift some jobs from the public sector to private, and fill some space then so be it. Put it on the table to compete with the cities that are going to outbid us or continue to allow others to take the corporations and businesses and be content with getting commercial tax revenue from antique shops.
2) Okay. And that is why they have selected MMPI who is a leader in this type of business. While I wondered why they would use this particular vendor, I looked for the reason while so many just kept griping about it. Frankly, we've seen locally why government entities shouldn't run business operations and having the tasks of attracting tenants and medical conventions be turned over to a private company seems a better option than expecting the county to learn on the fly.
3) Me too. Didn't realize that I was a defender of convention centers. I see this project as a means to their (city hall, county commissioners) end. They wanted a convention hall and believe that it will be some sort of economic stimulus and this offers more than just an empty, unbooked structure.
4) There's some more of that pining. Maybe manufacturing could come in a the form of high tech or new industry but I don't hold my breath for that one being a long term solution. The US is rarely the most efficient in this industry, unless it includes taking production overseas.
5) Did calling the county commissions a group with suspect competency or a lack of a firm grasp on the bottom line lead you to believe that I was a big supporter? While I can appreciate the merits of the project, it seems as poorly packaged and presented as the West End project. Sure, I can accept what is behind it but do it the right way.
6) Believe the hype of a sales pitch then who's to blame? Entertainment districts and sports teams are two areas that we do have as assets. Both are limited and can not be the only source of economy but they play their part. I listened to a presentation by Peter Lawson Jones the other day and he said that this (Med Mart) was not the only arrow in this quiver. I suspect that some of this hyperbole about past promises of one project being the only thing that we need to go from the bottom to the top is just that, exaggeration. Exaggeration to win an argument.
7) Good luck in your career path. I think you could do far better though.

For all the questions, I'm sad that there wasn't a thought on what this means for Lakewood.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:
Let's not stop at the Rock Hall, let's go to the Browns Stadium, Jacobs Field, the rebuild of the Convention Center, the I-X Center, The Great Lakes Science Center and a general frenzy and misrepresentation that flows all over as desperate people do desperate things, with little or no impact.

I mentioned almost all of those in my 2d post. The only one that gets a pass is the IX, because it was almost all private money and in fact, the city & county fought it tooth and nail.
But the IX might be the most instructitve of all. It was supposed to be a national if not worldwide "showcase" for industrial products just like the MM is being hyped to be. But nobody in industry wanted it or cared about it, so now it has the RV show and a ferris wheel.
Combine the double busts of the Rock hall (sorry Ivor, I know you think you have Cleveland all figured out, but you werent here for alll the breathless hype, and if you were, you were 6) and the IX and you have this disaster waiting to happen on the public dime.

All of those things may not have paid off as big as promised, but what would downtown Cleveland be like if none of those were there?

Bryan wrote:

All of those things may not have paid off as big as promised, but what would downtown Cleveland be like if none of those were there?

Answer: Youngstown.

PS -- the IX Center has been a disappointment from the industry side because there are no hotels. I was in that field when they (IX managers) tried to sell the "8-minute cab ride from downtown," which brought show managers to tears with laughter.

A right-sized convention center would bring a lot of good, modest sized industrial shows to Cleveland (Columbus' facility is a terrific example).

If you ever, ever believed these things ever pay for themselves you're a fool. But who do you want to be? Closer to Columbus, Cincy, Indy, Charlotte, Pittsburgh, and other second tier cities in our range, or closer to Buffalo, Youngstown, Toledo ... post industrial cities on the way down?

Dee

Thanks for the clarification, good points.

The same with Paul and Bryan.

However, if you were planning a convention, would you seriously consider Cleveland, over other "convention cities"? I love this region, but...

I think Cleveland would have been light years ahead of the game had they not kept trying to trade the cow for a magic bean.

Imagine if the time, effort and money had been channeled into positive projects for the region, and more importantly for the people that live in the region? Imagine the self esteem of the people if each of these projects had been pitched as projects. Instead of project that "will save the city, or it will go to hell..." Living in Lakewood, and Cuyahoga County, I am sick and tired of the over dramatic pitch.

We need a serious group to look seriously at what we have and start working with that.

I tend to wear vertical stripes instead of plaids.

FWIW

Jim --

There are many conventions that Cleveland would be in the running for, if the convention center wasn't the disaster it is. And I do mean disaster. Not Public Hall ... that is an architectural gem that must never be demolished. But our convention center is an embarrassment.

I've been to a lot of second tier midwest cities for meetings, and not many of them have more to offer in terms of attractions than Cleveland. Show managers just don't want to hold their convention a glorified cave of horrors.

Again, this is not going to save the city. but in my humble opinion it's important to be competitive, and to fill up hotel room nights and restaurants throughout the year. I think it matters.

Paul Schrimpf wrote:Again, this is not going to save the city. but in my humble opinion it's important to be competitive, and to fill up hotel room nights and restaurants throughout the year. I think it matters.

Paul

All valid, even if small northern Ohio conventions I would suppose.

On a one to ten with public money and the problems in the region?

Is it more important to bring in weekend traffic to the area, or permanent residents to the area? Which has the bigger impact, in a city/region with very limited funds.

While I love Lakewood and the region, driving into Cuyahoga County, was a real eye-opener!

These are just random thoughts after seeing how others do it and are doing.

.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:.

However, if you were planning a convention, would you seriously consider Cleveland, over other "convention cities"? I love this region, but..
.

Of course you wouldnt. If you did you wouldnt be in charge of convention planning for long. Orlando, Vegas, San Diego, even Chicaqo are all great places to go for that once-a-year "business" meeting. Cleveland, not so much.
As for regional conventions, I do know that Cleveland does get its share of those. Certain regional meetings just naturally rotate out of fairness to the members of the organization. A huge tax burden probably wouldnt "move the needle" all that much, IMO.
I agree there are no "magic beans" There are things we can offer the world, but an alluring place to take your spouse on the company account isnt one of them.

As for the argument "how much worse would it be if we hadnt done all that stuff" remember that weve sunk almost a BILLION DOLLARS into sports, entertainment, and "tourist' venues. Can anyone say that BILLION was a good value?

So Dee or Jim,
You've made it clear you're unhappy with all the money that's been spent. If you had that $1 Billion, what would you soecifically spend it on to save Cleveland?

I just don't know if the answer is easy. I also wouldn't assume that the way the money was spent wasn't beneficial. Again I ask the question, if Cleveland didn't have those things, what would it be like?