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Re: Does Lakewood Need to add a Jail to it's repertoire?
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:10 am
by Jim O'Bryan
Bill Call wrote:Bryan Schwegler wrote:So why is it going to double in cost in two years? What happens in two years?
The costs to maintain prisioners has increased by about 225% over the last 8 years. Those costs are increasing at an accelerating rate. Also, the current jail does not meet State standards so without major expenditures to improve the current facility the City will be forced to pay another community to house our prisioners.
Would you rather spend a million dollars or make a million dollars?
Bill
Unlike Bryan I will accept those numbers. However I have to think much of that is due to the move to privatized prisons. Hmmmm?
However there was a very green, very good project put forward that would have cost $30,000 to study, no wait, nothing, and could have netted the city a minimum of $250 million dollars.
But would not even be possible with a prison based economy here.
But I am sure the city has no need for that much money.
.
Re: Does Lakewood Need to add a Jail to it's repertoire?
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:39 am
by Bill Call
Bryan Schwegler wrote:Of course in the end it's better to make money. I just want to be sure we're not playing fast and loose with data and throwing out figures as certainty when they're not.
But aren't you also making a very big assumption that our new jail, if built, would bring in $1 million per year by housing other's criminals? Last I saw from Mayor Ed above is they're just starting to talk so I don't know how you know what the logistics will be.
Here are the costs to support prisioners:
2004 $934,000
2005 $942,000
2006 $700,000
I think it is reasonable to project $1 million dollars expenditures in 2011.
In 2006 the City paid other communities $274,000 to house 27 (monthly average) Lakewood prisioners. If those other communites have any sense they charged us more than it cost them. If we have any sense will charge them more than it costs us.
Re: Does Lakewood Need to add a Jail to it's repertoire?
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:45 am
by Jim O'Bryan
OK what about this.
We apply to the city of Cleveland for TIFs, and help in developing the land on Berea Road, Madison and West 106. They help us build the new Lakewood Prison on Cleveland Property.
Cleveland is desperate for development, and has some great programs. They have a ton of empty land close enough to Lakewood to make it viable.
Would seem a cheaper, faster, easier way to build the nightmare.
.
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:03 am
by Ruthie Koenigsmark
Here is something of interest that was sent to me...that has some merit for us now...........
http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/building.html
Ironically, while rural areas pursue prisons as a growth strategy, whether this is a wise or effective strategy is far from clear. Increasing evidence suggests that by many measures prisons do not produce economic growth for local economies and can, over the long term, have detrimental effects on the social fabric and environment of rural communities. Moreover, this massive penetration of prisons into rural America portends dramatic consequences for the entire nation as huge numbers of inmates from urban areas become rural residents for the purposes of Census-based formulas used to allocate government dollars and political representation.
Despite a lack of studies documenting the effects of prisons on rural areas and small towns over time, prisons are now heralded by economic development professionals and politicians of all stripes as beneficial economic engines for depressed rural economies. Along with gambling casinos and huge animal confinement units for raising or processing hogs and poultry, prisons have become one of the three leading rural economic enterprises as states and localities seek industries which provide large scale and quick opportunities.
According to Thomas Johnson, an economist and professor of public affairs at the University of Missouri, prisons are not very good economic development strategies because they generate few linkages to the economy, failing to attract significant numbers of associated industries, as an auto plant might spark the development of delivery companies, radio assemblers and electronic harness makers
Prisons may also fail to foster significant retail development. Because prisons, as a large-scale enterprise, attract chain stores, there is a "replacement" effect, with giants such as McDonalds and Walmarts pushing out locally-owned enterprises. In Tehachapi, California, home to two state prisons, 741 locally-owned businesses failed in the last decade of the 1990s, while box-store chains absorbed the local markets. As a result, there may be no net increase in tax revenues, and, because profits made by chain stores are not locally reinvested in the way that locally-owned profits may be, the circulation of dollars within a community may drop in absolute terms.
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:11 am
by Rick Uldricks
deleted
$
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:18 am
by Bill Call
Ruthie Koenigsmark wrote:Ironically, while rural areas pursue prisons as a growth strategy, whether this is a wise or effective strategy is far from clear.
No one is talking about building a jail as an economic growth stategy. We already have a jail. It's not up to State standards and it's not big enough.
We spend nearly $300,000 per year to send our prisioners to other communites. Building a new jail might save money. In any case at some point someone from the ACLU is going to poke around our current jail and send us the bill.
If we learned one thing from the last administration I hope we learned that pretending we don't have a problem is not the same thing as solving the problem.
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:33 am
by Ruthie Koenigsmark
No offense, Bill, I would like to hear from the Mayor directly that this is not being looked as a strategic growth opportunity by city government (by housing criminals from our neighboring suburbs)--this has not be answered as yet to my satisfication--
If we are simply looking at meeting code because our current building has some issues----makes sense--lets get it done then. If we are looking at broadening our scope then we need for our citizens to know this and given the chance to express their opinions in an appropriate forum.
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:39 am
by Bret Callentine
Wow! at those prices, can't we just go 'old school' and send all our ciminals to Australia? I don't know the exact figures, but a one way ticket to Syndey is definitely cheaper than any extended stay in a jail.
If we have to build here, then I say we build a new 'Alcatraz' style island off the coast of Lakewood.
Think of the tourist dollars!!!
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:19 am
by Shawn Juris
Before Jim's cries of fire in this theater start gaining momentum to distract more concerned citizens, could we get some confirmation that this is indeed a jail that is being proposed? Specifics on the use would obviously be helpful.
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:09 am
by Jim O'Bryan
Shawn Juris wrote:Before Jim's cries of fire in this theater start gaining momentum to distract more concerned citizens, could we get some confirmation that this is indeed a jail that is being proposed? Specifics on the use would obviously be helpful.
Shawn
As I guess I am not a concerned enough citizen, only owning homes and businesses in Lakewood.
Maybe I should move my businesses to Westlake so I could be as concerned as you!
jeeeeeeesh!
How many criminals walk out of jail, and into?
While I can tell you are all excited about the glamour associated with a city that makes money housing prisoners, it does not have the same luster with me. I am sure you have some info on how "prison cities" can attract enough people to fill empty homes and stores. Perhaps you could share it?
But heck, I just found out I am not a concerned citizen!
.
Re: Does Lakewood Need to add a Jail to it's repertoire?
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:37 am
by Will Brown
[quote="Jim O'Bryan"]
While jailing Americans would seem to be the new sport of the 21st Century as we passed one out of every 100 Americans in jail. It is the worst idea I can possibly imagine. When the drunk is released from jail, what does he do. Walk to get his/her car. What does the petty theft do when released? Who visits these people in jail?
Besides it is defensive, not offensive. I still believe you put the same amount into safety services you will never need the jail. Proven fact, bad people hate police! Good people love police!
FWIW[/quote]
When the drunk is released from jail, one would hope he would be sober. Even if drunk, he is walking and thus less dangerous than if he were driving.
Assuming he has a car, it is certainly not parked at the jail, and most likely has been impounded by the police, or whoever owns the parking lot he left it in.
The petty thief perhaps has learned his lesson and will steal no more. In any case, he has paid his penalty. I wouldn't assume, as you apparently do, that he will go from jail to the next house and steal; even a petty thief should be smart enough to avoid the area that is full of police, corrections officials, etc., and where he could be easily identified.
Who visits people in jail; their families, for the most part, and attorneys. You appear to labor under the prejudice that all members of certain classes or races are congenitally criminal. Why not just lock them all up even if they haven't been convicted, just because their spouse, child, or brother has been convicted. Perhaps you want to make them wear an identifying symbol on their clothes, so good people will know who they are!
And I frankly don't think you have given any thought to what is defensive and offensive. Police are a defensive measure; they don't take action with respect to an individual until a crime has been committed or is imminent. And just what do you think we should do with the, presumably, more people these more police arrest; gas them?
Building the facility in Lakewood would mean that we could collect income tax from all employees; building it in Cleveland means we would forgo that source of income.
I visited a federal prison a couple of times, and it appeared to be an asset to the community. The grounds were well kept; there were no late-night parties; and trustees (prisoners who had demonstrated a good record) were available for cleaning and maintaining the parks and public areas, and for fighting forest fires.
Re: Does Lakewood Need to add a Jail to it's repertoire?
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:55 am
by Jim O'Bryan
Will Brown wrote:Jim O'Bryan wrote:
While jailing Americans would seem to be the new sport of the 21st Century as we passed one out of every 100 Americans in jail. It is the worst idea I can possibly imagine. When the drunk is released from jail, what does he do. Walk to get his/her car. What does the petty theft do when released? Who visits these people in jail?
Besides it is defensive, not offensive. I still believe you put the same amount into safety services you will never need the jail. Proven fact, bad people hate police! Good people love police!
FWIW
When the drunk is released from jail, one would hope he would be sober. Even if drunk, he is walking and thus less dangerous than if he were driving.
Assuming he has a car, it is certainly not parked at the jail, and most likely has been impounded by the police, or whoever owns the parking lot he left it in.
The petty thief perhaps has learned his lesson and will steal no more. In any case, he has paid his penalty. I wouldn't assume, as you apparently do, that he will go from jail to the next house and steal; even a petty thief should be smart enough to avoid the area that is full of police, corrections officials, etc., and where he could be easily identified.
Who visits people in jail; their families, for the most part, and attorneys. You appear to labor under the prejudice that all members of certain classes or races are congenitally criminal. Why not just lock them all up even if they haven't been convicted, just because their spouse, child, or brother has been convicted. Perhaps you want to make them wear an identifying symbol on their clothes, so good people will know who they are!
And I frankly don't think you have given any thought to what is defensive and offensive. Police are a defensive measure; they don't take action with respect to an individual until a crime has been committed or is imminent. And just what do you think we should do with the, presumably, more people these more police arrest; gas them?
Building the facility in Lakewood would mean that we could collect income tax from all employees; building it in Cleveland means we would forgo that source of income.
I visited a federal prison a couple of times, and it appeared to be an asset to the community. The grounds were well kept; there were no late-night parties; and trustees (prisoners who had demonstrated a good record) were available for cleaning and maintaining the parks and public areas, and for fighting forest fires.
Will
OK we have taken care of two, of the cleaner problems, drunks and petty thieves. now let's go to the dirtier sides, breaking and entering, drugs, asualt, etc.
And while their families visit so do others. they pimps, providers, loan sharks, friends and gang buddies.
So while we gain the taxes, which will have very little impact on Lakewood, and the glamor of being the new Grafton, along with the beautiful green space need the barb wire fence and walls, the city has many more, better, cheaper and positive ways to make much more money.
Many will disappear, as we move to the prison for $$$$$$.
You know it is funny, I had always heard of Lakewood for the new county prison rumblings from "regionalists" I mean why not house prisoners in Lakewood, it is not their city. But to hear it coming from long time Lakewood residents?
One more intersting fact that just came over my desk. Does the city have a record fo turning a profit with anything else? Winerhurst?
Just curious.
.
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:08 am
by Jim O'Bryan
Will
While police might seem and are a defensive measure. Hiring 30 more and making sure they are the best equipped in the county, and letting the criminals know that is totally offenisve.
Criminals, normally take the route of least resitance.
One of my gripes with all of this is there are many groups that are not just dedicated to making the city better, cleaner, friendlier, and a great place to live. Most if not all of these groups are succeeding at amazing levels.
Then there are groups ready to whore the city out to big box stores, prisons, economic development not in their yard but south of the William Sonoma Line, etc. solely for the theory it will reduce taxes.
Both of these groups are at complete odds with each other.
Me personally, I like the concept of being in a city that is the best place to live and raise a family.
FWIW
.
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:00 pm
by Will Brown
Jim, I suggest you mellow out before you pop an artery.
You are, perhaps inadvertently, confusing misdemeanants with felons, jails with prisons, and anyone who doesn't agree with you with membership of every group you don't like.
First, more police would be expensive, and your idea that more police would somehow scare away criminals ignores the fact that the Lakewood Police are already very good. On those few occasions when I have called them (perhaps more than most people because I live near an intersection that has a lot of accidents) they have always, without exception, responded very promptly. When I see a speeder or drunk driver pulled over, there are almost always multiple police cars surrounding the villain. According to the papers, when a store calls about a theft, the thief is almost always immediately apprehended. So I think the police we have are quite good, and up to doing their job.
As far as a jail, the city has an obligation, whether you like it or not, to house people convicted of misdemeanors. Since our current facility is inadequate, that means we have to either build an adequate facility, or pay to have someone else hold them. Using a distant facility means when the police arrest someone, they would have to transport him to a distant facility, and bring him back and forth for a trial, and then transport him again to a distant facility. I can't think of a less productive use for police officers. So to me it makes sense to have our own facility. I don't think anyone, other than a strawman of your construction, has advocated building a huge jail and hoping to rent its services to other communities. And I don't think I would support that proposal. I'd be interested in hearing who in the county, other than you, has suggested Lakewood as a site for a consolidated holding facility; perhaps someone who has not noticed how crowded Lakewood is already?
As to your diatribe against almost anything that would improve Lakewood's economic tax base, perhaps you are not aware that we apparently cannot afford the services we already have, nor that when you walk down our commercial streets you pass a large number of vacant stores (I may be mistaken here; perhaps they are selling for rent signs), and that a large proportion of our local businesses don't seem to last very long (I went to a store last week to buy some finish restorer, since I knew they carried it; unfortunately, they weren't there anymore). The people who talk about bringing in mega-stores are dreaming. Our demographics, location, and lack of parking are fatal flaws with respect to mega-stores.
Like you, I want to live in a town with good facilities to raise a family, and Lakewood has been that, but unless we can resolve quickly some rather pressing problems, Lakewood will not be like that for long. When I was young, Cleveland (at least the west side) was a good family community, with a highly respected school system (when we moved to Lakewood, Lakewood High was using a system of foreign language instruction that had been developed in the Cleveland public schools), but we are all aware that Cleveland has deteriorated, and it hasn't taken that long. My hope is that we don't follow them.
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:33 pm
by Jim O'Bryan
Will
Please, I am a very calm person.
Please, I support many things and people I do not agree with.
Please, we are not only talking of misdemeanors, when the county jail is filled, and it always is then guess what. We are not talking about a larger jail for Lakewood. We are talking about a jail large enough to take in over flow. A prison for profit.
I know first hand how good the Lakewood Police are, and they universally will tell you 15 more police a shift will make a huge difference.
There are plans, that cost less than the prison that could net the city millions in clean, safe fun taxable income. That includes, parking, commercial, etc.
We both agree about Cleveland. We must not connect or get dragged down by them. The easiest way to not follow them is to not try to live on low hanging fruit.
This city can do far better than this.
Honestly as we talked about the crazy concept of building the Lakewood Prison in Cleveland we came to realize it would be easier, faster and cheaper. We could still keep the income.
Will, thanks for taking part.
peace/....