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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:12 pm
by Bryan Schwegler
Joe Whisman wrote:I shoveled my sidewalk and my neighbors in both direction. I did this before I did my driveway. I am not an owner of a dog, but I hear salt hurts their feet. I try not to salt the sidewalk for this reason.
That and the fact that too much salt is bad for the environment and your lawn is also why I don't use salt.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:28 pm
by Shawn Juris
I love this topic. Civic obligations, liability exposures, municipal expenditures, snow fall and people falling down. It's got all of the gems in one place.
First civic obligations. Great idea, it's nice when the walks are shoveled and clear.
Next liability exposure. While the example of driving cars and shoveling snow can be intriguing there is also the other angle that would point out that the best way to avoid auto liability is to not drive, in the same vein in Ohio the best way to avoid an exposure related to snow is to not shovel it. If homeowners are not legally obligated (as indicated in the text that I've found and has been listed here) to clear their walks and in fact open themselves to the interpretation of negligence if they attempt but do a shabby job then a reasonable choice is to not do anything. Another option is to do what you will with snow on your walks, shovel it don't shovel it but be certain to mark you territory with a visible warning sign that reads: Danger- Snow and Ice may cause you to fall.
Municipal Expenditures. If memory serves and the schools are funded with our extraordinarily high property taxes and we don't provide busing then maybe this is an issue for the School Board. With the money saved from having all student walk to school and not needing to own, operate and staff the bus system maybe they could come up with an alternative to ensure a path to school. I guess this raises another question about the dollars spent per student being that Lakewood is so unique in that it doesn't have buses.
Snow fall. Is nice to look at.
People falling down. Is funny, as long as no one is seriously injured and more importantly it's not you.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:09 pm
by Will Brown
The people who argue that shoveling your sidewalks can increase your potential liability appear to rely on the belief that Ohio law has no requirement that you shovel; however, in Lakewood, the law does require that you remove all snow and ice from your sidewalks, which would appear to invalidate the argument that there is no law imposing that requirement. I would draw an analogy to speeding. If you are in violation of a local speed limit and have an accident, good luck in looking for a verdict that you were not, in some degree, responsible for the harm from the accident; similarly, if you have allowed your sidewalk to remain in a dangerous state, in violation of a local ordinance, I would expect you to be held responsible for any resultant harm.
Sidewalks become almost impassable if someone doesn't clear them, and, feeling an obligation toward my fellow citizens, I (and my wife) do shovel. When we moved in, we also shoveled our elderly neighbor's walk, as did his neighbor on the other side. Over the years I have become the elderly neighbor, and my younger neighbors don't appear to feel a need to clear their sidewalks, although one does clear his garage apron in the back yard. So I think the generally unshoveled state of our neighborhoods is reflective of a change in our society, where we are now much more self-centered, with less concern for our fellows.
What also strikes me as a great change is that kids no longer go around the neighborhood offering to shovel the walks for money. When I was young, that was a good source of income for many kids, with no expenses (you used your family's shovels). We would pair up and go through our neighborhood and rake in the cash. Kids today are apparently too coddled to do this, with parents who give them generous allowances, and apparently feel that honest work is beneath them. If you go to an honors assembly at the school, you can't help but be impressed with all the activities those kids are involved in, but that is a very small percentage of the student body, and I think the remainder is generally idle, unless you consider watching TV and playing electronic games meaningful activity. I think our acceptance and even encouragement of idleness does not augur well for our future; these kids are not going to magically become industrious when they are due to enter the work force.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:21 pm
by Esther Hazlett
Actually, we had two young guys come to our door last evening, offering to shovel. So they're still out there.
roads still a mess and nobody clears their sidewalks
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:30 pm
by Katie Sizemore
You must have a huge driveway, and walk.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:46 pm
by Bryan Schwegler
Esther Hazlett wrote:Actually, we had two young guys come to our door last evening, offering to shovel. So they're still out there.
Same here as well. Would have let them do it if it wasn't in the middle of the blizzard.

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:03 pm
by Danielle Masters
Although I always try to clear my walkway asap and usually do, I would not label this topic as a 'major' concern for myself. Except for the few days where snow is extremely high I don't view this as a major problem. With the exception of the elderly who sometimes have issues walking in general, smaller amounts of snowfall covering sidewalks do not pose any threat...it is easy to traverse them without issue. Sure there can be special cases to this on small snowfall days, such as larger drifts in specific areas.
Well you may not think it's a "major" concern and that it doesn't "pose a threat", but I think my 7 year old daughter might care to disagree a bit. My children walk down Hilliard, the part with the "hills". Not everyone shovels or plows their walks. For anyone, myself included as I almost always walk with them, these walks can be a bit difficult if the sidewalks are slippery or snow covered. It's easy to lose your footing. Well today my daughter did lose her footing and she fell. By the time she made it home she was sopping wet and in tears, as she was freezing. Now perhaps you'll say I should drive them, but it wasn't as though there was a blizzard today and we are not even a half mile from the school. We prefer to do the healthy thing and walk, and being that it is a city ordinance and it is the considerate thing to do, people really should shovel their walks. I just get really annoyed at all the excuses about why sidewalks aren't cleaned. The Browns game was done early enough and the snow fall was done early enough, so shovel your darn walks, PLEASE, so that those of us that choose to walk in a city that bills itself as walkable can do so without trudge through snow covered sidewalks. Stepping down from soapbox for now. [/list]
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:32 am
by Jeff Endress
The people who argue that shoveling your sidewalks can increase your potential liability appear to rely on the belief that Ohio law has no requirement that you shovel; however, in Lakewood, the law does require that you remove all snow and ice from your sidewalks, which would appear to invalidate the argument that there is no law imposing that requirement.
Will, you're confusing two separate issues. There is indeed a statutory obligation imposed by the snow removal ordinance. If you fail to remove the snow, there is a fine, sort of a criminal liability. Those fines are paid to the city. But, in an entirely separate vein, there is a huge body of common law which holds, essentially, that a landowner is not responsible to an injured party, provided that the slip and fall occured on a "natural accumulation" of ice and snow. Shoveling snow can create an unnatural accumulation which could render the landowner responsible to an injured party.
The net result is choosing between civil liablity to an injured party for a bad shoveling job, or "criminal" liability for violating the ordinance. The best way to deal with the issue would be to couple the shoveling ordinance with a grant of landowner immunity from a civil suit for creating an "unnatural accumulation", but I suspect that this would require action by the state legislature.
Jeff
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:24 pm
by Gary Rice
The 13th Amendment to the United States Constitution (Section 1) clearly states:
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction
Whatever the original intent of the amendment was, (and it served in 1865 to abolish slavery) my question from a legal standpoint would be whether a governmental entity can therefore compel a citizen into involuntary servitude by forcing that citizen to clear a public walkway; whether in front of their home, or anywhere else?
And to do so, without just compensation to that citizen?
As I've said before, as long as I'm able, I like to get the snow off my walks and of my neighbor when I can, but to me, this is more of a free-will gesture and good-neighbor courtesy on my part, than with feeling compelled to do so.
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:28 pm
by Stephen Eisel
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction
Thanks Gary! I am going to read this to my wife tonight.

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:30 pm
by Gary Rice
Stephen,
There's the letter of the law, and then, there's the SPIRIT of the law. When it comes to our dear wives and girlfriends, whatever their request, the appropriate response is probably "Yes dear".
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:32 pm
by Stephen Eisel
Gary Rice wrote:Stephen,
There's the letter of the law, and then, there's the SPIRIT of the law. When it comes to our dear wives and girlfriends, whatever their request, the appropriate response is probably "Yes dear".

There goes another dream

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:34 pm
by Joe Whisman
Isn't there also a street parking ban when the snow exceeds 2 inches?
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:38 pm
by dl meckes
351.26 EMERGENCY DURING HEAVY SNOW STORMS.
(a) Whenever, during any period of twenty-four hours or less, snow falls in the City or in a section thereof to a depth of two inches or more, an emergency is declared to exist in that such a heavy snow storm constitutes a serious public hazard impairing transportation, the movement of food and fuel supplies, medical care, fire, health and police protection, and other vital facilities of the City. Such emergency shall continue until an announcement by the Director of Public Safety that snow plowing operations have been completed, which announcement shall be made in the same manner as outlined in Section 351.27.
(b) On streets posted as emergency snow ban streets, an emergency shall exist without announcement as specified in Section 351.27 whenever two or more inches of snow has fallen within a twenty-four hour period and such emergency shall continue until plowing operations are completed or until twenty-four hours following the cessation of snow fall, whichever is earlier.
(c) On streets posted as 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. emergency streets, an emergency shall exist without announcement as specified in Sections 351.27 whenever two or more inches of snow accumulates prior to 8:00 a.m. of a specific day and shall continue until plowing operation are complete or until 4:00 p.m. that day, whichever is earlier.
(Ord. 87-78. Passed 10-16-78.)
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:48 pm
by Stephen Eisel
I always try to snow blow the sidewalks of my neighbors.