Hatred on the Lakewood Observation Deck

[c. dawson]

Politics is indeed a very slippery slope, especially in the past few years as things have gotten very polarized. Neither side ever believes they're in the wrong, and both try to claim the moral high ground. In the end, we all lose. But this isn't new ... Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals, all have hated each other for a very long time, and the hatred has been quite virulent. If anything, I'm often saddened by people who put their party affiliation ahead of the needs of their country, but everything in life is a personal choice.

When I read Ivor's post, I felt really bad for him, because it really appeared that Stephen was hugely insensitive and pretty much idiotic in his response ... but then when Stephen posted what Ivor wrote him, that feeling evaporated instantly, because Ivor said some pretty idiotic things as well. Frankly, neither one has a lock on being right or taking the moral high ground. Both really said some dumb things ... but that's their right. That's the beauty of free speech. And that's the beauty of an open forum like this. Free speech means you have to include speech you don't like, even speech that's hateful. Because the tide always turns, and while you may be espousing that someone is wrong and shouldn't be allowed to say something you don't like ... eventually there'll be a time when someone doesn't like what you say, and wants to make sure that you'll not be allowed to say it. And that viewpoint comes from both ends of the political spectrum ... I had a great professor back in college who pointed out that the political spectrum (left/right, liberal/conservative) is NOT a straight line, but rather it curves, almost becoming a circle, because the two extreme ends of the spectrum, radicalism and reactionary, are far closer than they'd ever admit. It made sense then, it still makes sense.

But it really sounds to me like both parties in this debate are at fault ... so Ivor, if you want to run away from the LO deck because you were insulted, you have that right. But you of all people should know about standing up for your rights. So don't let someone who disagrees with you win. And also accept the fact that you often can't win, because no matter how much you argue, no matter how many facts you present, no matter what viewpoint you bring to a subject, someone with a dissenting opinion will also have facts to refute you, or will outright ignore you, or note that your viewpoint is slanted because you don't watch the news channel they do or read the pundits that they read.

But just because you can't win doesn't mean you should stop the battle. I have friends that I love and get along famously with, but we still have ideological arguments ... and in fact, I think we actually enjoy them, and I know at least I have learned to accept their viewpoint on a number of issues and vice-versa. That's what good informed debate can do. Though there are people who don't want to know another viewpoint, who believe that the viewpoint that they have is the ONLY viewpoint. But even though they'll never change, it doesn't mean you should give up.

A good quote came from Harry Truman ... a Democrat (so he's evil in some eyes), but also conservative (evil in other eyes), but who was born and raised on a farm, and had a great deal of wisdom gained from the school of hard knocks; he said an expert is someone who doesn't want to learn anything new, because then he wouldn't be an expert anymore.

So don't ever be an expert. If you believe in something, continue to fight for it. Just accept the fact that a person on the other side of the fence may be fighting just as much as you. But that's their right. And it's your right too.

Remember, freedom isn't free. When the "Founding Fathers" put this country together, they took risks, and fought to create what we have today. And in battle, a British bullet did NOT discriminate between someone who had liberal beliefs or conservative beliefs. And it's been that way all through American history. People have fought and died for this country ... people of all colors, economic backgrounds, ages, religions, political beliefs, sexual orientations. The bullets and the bombs and the shells didn't ask for a label ... they just did their deadly work.

And while we're a bit too polarized today (and I do believe this has been pushed by both political parties, trying to shore up their support, because I think a lot of Americans are getting sick and tired of both parties), the pendulum will swing again. And again. And again. It always has.

So everything's up to you ... I just hope the LO Deck stays free and open, to intelligent discourse as well as idiots and demogogues. Because that's what freedom of speech is all about. The good and the bad. As long as it's free, it's all good.

[Bill Call]

It seems that posters here cannot debate in a healthy manner, and resort to name calling, childish games and more offensive tactics to stir the negative emotions.

Hide behind your new Bible, The Constitution, like cowards and be proud to be the person who contributes to the murder of millions, the starvation, suffering, poverty and rotting of nations across the globe, just for the sake of your own personal gain.

In the end your bigotry and selfishness will come back to bite you in the behind. Your tax cuts will bring you a fake happiness, and you will have to live with the guilt that millions are starving and dying because you're too selfish to contribute to health care to the neighbors within your own country and to the peace process across the globe.

Would anyone like to start by properly defining "healthy debate"?

I think it begins where I say something like: "You are a selfish, murdering, greedy, hypocritical, reactionary, war mongering pig responsible for all the worlds grief. Your country is a cesspool of violence and hate that the world would be better off without it."

At that point if you defend yourself or your country by quoting your attacker you are attacked for not agreeing that you are a selfish, murdering, greedy, hypocritical, reactionary, war mongering pig.

Does that about cover it?

[Anne Steiner]

I haven't read most of the replys to this thread, but as I've posted before I participate in many other forums ranging from music to hobbies, all are moderated, except LO. I seen so many nasty, reactionary posts here its terrible, usually I am afraid to post---'cause of all of the nastiness here.

I think these boards should be moderated and some threads should be locked.

:runs from forum:

[Dee Martinez]

Just to stir things up:

It seems that liberals are very illiberal people.

They think that every opposing thought or opinion is not based on a reasoned argument but based on the meanness of the person holding that different opinion. Liberals think that people who believe differently aren't just wrong they believe they are evil.

Free choice in schools: You hate children!

Let the buyer beware: You hate consumers!

Lower taxes and increase take home pay: You want to starve the poor!

Privatize public services: You hate public employees!

Let people experience failure: You are mean spirited!

Let people experience success: You are selfish!

A riddle: 60 years ago Hong Kong was the poorest place on Earth, populated by refugees. 60 years ago the palistinian refugee camps were the poorest place on Earth, populated by refugees. 60 years later Hong Kong is one of the worlds richest cities and palistine is one of the poorest, most violent and most corrupt.

Which community received all the help?

Of course only liberals have knee jerk responses. Or do they?

Bring the troops home: APPEASERS! YOU WANT THE TERRORISTS TO WIN! YOU HATE AMERICA! YOU HATE BUSH!

Insist that Iraq meet benchmarks: (see above)

Ask for controls on government snooping: (see above)

Observe the Geneva Convention: (see above)

Negotiate with nations rather than bombing: (see above)

Raise taxes on the 2% making the most income in our new economy: COMMUNISTS!! YOU HATE AMERICA! YOU HATE BUSH!

Suggest that medical care be more affordable and/or available: (see above)

Advocate for any kind of workers' protections: (see above)

Suggest that mental patients shouldnt have instant access to guns: (see above)

Support gay rights, affirmative action, immigration reform: ATHEISTS!!!! YOU HATE AMERICA! YOU HATE GOD! And even worse YOU HATE BUSH!

I could go on, but you get the idea.

"Hatred" is a pretty strong word. I wont dish out more than I can take and its always good to keep a sense of humore about things.



And who in the world helped the Palestinians with anything?

[Ivor Karabatkovic]

I'm okay with personal attacks. I have thick skin. I've been called a dirty foreigner all my life. I have been stepped on and humiliated. I have been denied my education and I have been denied employment. What Stephen said has been the constant in the past 18 years of my life. Things don't change and people don't care, so I won't dwell on personal attacks.

I did include my first post of that thread in the original posting here. If you read it over, I said:

My first post can be seen here. It's the third post from the bottom. It was a emotionally fueled post, but I stick to my words because I won't go back and edit things to twist this. But not everyone refrains from twisting things apparently.

and provided the link to the forum/post.

My opinion wasn't one to humiliate or attack any one person on this forum, but it serves as the general view and opinion of the world towards individuals that are blind to what this administration is doing.

I didn't mention that the world dislikes the american people as a whole, but rather individuals that think that any war is justifiable just because we are the United States. You cannot go around the globe and march into countries at your own will and believe that it's justifiable without a good reason.

I'm not going to sit here and say "this forum should be moderated" because free speech is free speech. Stephen is entitled to voice his opinion just as I am, as a US citizen, allowed to voice mine.

When threats start flying that's when I excuse myself and take the higher road.

I waste too much of my time on here anyway. I have to get my gear ready for work, and also help my brother pack for his trip to Europe to visit family. He graduated from Ohio State University this Sunday, he deserves a break.

Time to go do something productive with my time, because after all I'm just a filthy foreigner that's trying to put food on the table and get an education. I'll use the negativity as a positive and use it for motivation. 5-10 years from now, I won't remember the names from this project that kicked me to the curb, just the group that picked me up from my lowest low and guided me to a better happiness.

There are extraordinary people on this board that you can learn a lot from. Genuine people, genuine friends, with a heart and a helping hand. Then there are those select few that you can learn more from because they are the perfect example of what not to be, or what not to become in my case.

Adios,
Ivor

[dl meckes]

There are extraordinary people on this board that you can learn a lot from. Genuine people, genuine friends, with a heart and a helping hand. Then there are those select few that you can learn more from because they are the perfect example of what not to be, or what not to become in my case.

Adios,
Ivor

I think this sums things up pretty well (but for the omission that sometimes each side of that equation can switch).

The Dalai Lama said, "Basically we are all the same human beings with the same potential to be a good human being or a bad human being ... The important thing is to realize the positive side and try to increase that; realize the negative side and try to reduce. That's the way."

[Ivor Karabatkovic]

And to say that I'm sensitive is funny.

I don't think that many of you would be able to survive under the circumstances that my family and I have lived through.

I don't need to explain myself and what my family has seen and experienced because you all probably don't care. And even if you do care, it wouldn't change your opinions.

Like I said in the previous post. I've been called a foreigner all my life. Refugee, lazy european, go back to your country we don't want or need you here. You dirty Bosnian.

It must be nice to have a country to call your home. After four tries, I haven't achieved that.

[James Mullen]

Ivor,

I have never addressed anyone directly on a board, and this may be the only time I do. Being an Irish American, I hope you understand that many of the things you describe, being talked down to and told where you can go, are characteristics that most all immigrants who have come to this country have faced. I think this is the case whether it be you came last week, last year, 20 years or 100 years. Knowing what my roots went through to establish themselves here, and the names they were called, only makes me stronger.

[Ivor Karabatkovic]

James,

That's what I'm trying to point out. In the end this all makes me stronger, not weaker, not more sensitive.

I'm glad we can agree.

We all are "immigrants". Someone in our past was a "foreigner" at one point. We are all so different, yet still so alike.

Define "American". Is an American a US Citizen? Great, that makes me an American too. Is it someone that's born here? Or is it a Native American that is the only true American?

What makes it right for me, a person with a US passport and a legal right to live here, work here, die here, be labeled a foreigner and makes me any different from someone who's family members moved to this country a few generations ago? In the end, a US passport from 100 years ago and a US passport from one month ago are still the same thing: a US passport.

Stephen,
No need to resort to childish games, I'm just looking for a good, balanced debate.
Thanks for beating me to proving to everyone just how low, ARROGANT, maybe a bit prejudice or racist to immigrants and bigoted you are.

PS You used the word immigrants. My comments were only directed towards one immigrant.

he followed that up with:

Justine, the intent of my 12 step post was not hurt Ivor.

At least I'm not backing out of what I originally said in my post.

[Stephen Eisel]

Ivor, I was making light of your post.

[David Scott]

Ivor - you need to pick and choose your battles because you can't fight all of the time. This seems to be something important to you, if so then make your point and ignore Stephen. Look at his posts, he is just trying to push buttons and make controversy. I do the same at times. Everybody, everywhere has an agenda - You need to see if that agenda is worth fighting against or for. I have spent years in a mixed-race family. A lot of things you just let wash away because it isn't worth the energy to get upset, but then there are others that you take a stand against. I believe you know this more then I do and have chosen to take a stand and for that I applaud you. While there is no censorship of posts, there are some that go over the line and the person needs to be checked. So check him, and when he says something take it with a grain of salt and acknowledge the source. The one thing you can't do is let him push out your voice because then he wins.

[Gary Rice]

Well, lets see now....

I believe that I saw my name, a few panels above?

The truth is that Americans have always had these kinds of discussions. Classical liberalism, conservatism, and even libertarianism have all been around for a good while.

All of these "isms", along with "communism", "socialism", "fascism", and others, begin with basic premises, from which follow a pattern of reasoning that may appear as logical to the person believing in a certain way, and be utterly illogical to others.

When I debate people of other philosophical beliefs, for example, I can understand much of what they believe to be true, and I can often surmise where they are coming from. It is their fundamental premise that I would question, as I am sure they would question mine. That does not mean that one must get personal with the other. I think that some of my 'Deck debaters and I would probably enjoy meeting each other socially, and then, continue debating on another day.

None of us are paid, so far as I am aware, to push "ism" agendas down anyone's throat.

So why do we do it?

There are other ways, thought the political process, the ballot box, and through topical debate, that we can still express ourselves constructively.

As well, contrary to popular belief, chat rooms are not the Wild West of Free Speech that we might think they are. Accountability is still out there.

Words are very important. We need to remember that, once expressed, written words are indeed laid out for all to see. The spoken word might float in the air. The written word is forever there.

The tendency to demonize one's adversary is as old as the hills. In a time when an offended party can destroy the earth with a nuclear weapon, we poor humans must learn new ways of compromise, and conflict resolution. To do otherwise would be unthinkable.

Can we start here?

I say again, kumbayah.

[Bill Call]

poor humans must learn new ways of compromise, and conflict resolution. To do otherwise would be unthinkable.

Can we start here?

I say again, kumbayah.

Good post.

Lets test your idea on compromise.

I think the Department of Education should be abolished. It builds no schools, buys no books, educates no students. Its policies hinder experimentation, innovation and achievement and its monies simply feed the bureaucracy.

However, I am willing to compromise and abolish is over a three year period. Are you willing to compromise?

[Colleen Wing]

Ivor,

There is a quote that I have always liked from Elbert Hubbard.

To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.

I was defaimed and slandered during my campaign about an unjust, unfounded, and later dismissed lawsuit by an angery, meaningless person who's main activity is life on the internet.

I know it comes with the territory, but especially when it affects your children, it is a difficult pill to swallow. But it is what it is. Whenever this happens to you it makes you think about things differently. I don't think Stephen meant it as an attack but as an exchange. It is unfortunate but you are both passionate people.

I think we all get to a point where we step away from a more negative than positive conversation or situation.

Never say never.

Good luck in all that you do.

Colleen

[Gary Rice]

Hi Bill,

Department of Education?

Hmmmm....

OK, OK, OK, So some things might take a wee bit more time than others to compromise on.

Actually, I was thinking of you and I when I was writing about constructive debate. We've gone back and forth a number of times with each other without getting too bent out of shape, have we not?

To make you feel better however, you should know that my cousin in Pennsylvania is a STAUNCH Libertarian, and to help him out, I did a campaign song for his recent election campaign.