The Observation Deck

Over the past school year, I, along with 7 or 8 other teachers, participated in an international teacher exchange. Lakewood hosted 8 or 9 teachers from countries all over the world. They were here to learn about teaching and learning in the United States. Each educator had a different focus. Along with the role that technology can play in the classroom, many were interested in the teaching methods and strategies that American teachers use to address the needs of individual learners in a classroom. Many see us as leaders in this area. Every visiting teacher that I spoke with was very surprised to learn that we (the U.S.) had adopted a system of high stakes testing. This is something in their own education systems that they felt was ineffective, high stress and compromised teaching and learning. Many were looking to us for ways to make improvements in their own classrooms and were very surprised to find that we too need to arrange our year and curriculum around a single (or in the case of ESL students three) high stakes test (s). Many felt that this was truly a step back.

I appreciate getting information from people who know how all of this works.

As I said, it's very difficult for me to understand this whole process and what the numbers are supposed to mean.

That there are a lot of people in the community that don't have any real attachment to the schools other than paying property taxes.

I'd like some of our educators to write some articles for the LO to help the rest of us understand (not that you all aren't busy enough).

David Anderson wrote:Let’s analyze the numbers a bit and see if we can actually add to the issue and not launch missiles.

Thanks for a thoughtful analysis. Your points are well taken.

Overall Lakewood schools do a good job. The fact that the High School continues to receive an excellent rating is a tribute to the students, faculty and support staff.

However, the fact remains that the district spends $18 million dollars more than Brunswick would spend with the same number of students. Given the money spent I think we should expect more than excuses when it comes to educating those students who are the most difficult to educate.

Look, I know I am always way out there in left field so it won't surprise you to find that I think that:

within a certain range there is no such thing as a good or bad school district. There are only students who are easier to teach and students who are harder to teach.

If you magically teleported all the students in a "bad" district to a "good" district and all of the students in that "good" district to the "bad" district what would happen? One year later at testing time you would find that the "bad" district became me a good district and the "good" district became a "bad" district.

Again, overall Lakewood is a fine school system. However, for the extra $18 million per year we should expect more than excuses.

Again, Bill, some students are more expensive to teach than others. Lakewood has 50% more students with physical and learning disabilities than Brunswick (students that many private schools choose not to enroll). The required teacher credentialing and teacher/student ratios can cost more than twice the average per pupil expenditure which inflates the overall average per pupil expenditure (no excuses - fact of law). Lakewood also has twice the number of economically disadvantaged students than Brunswick and 14-times the number of students with limited English proficiency.

Your "teleporting" example holds no water in reality. Brunswick couldn't handle a 50% increase in disabled students or a 140% increase in students with limited English proficiency without substantially raising the per pupil expenditure.

I simply can't look at these numbers and say that Brunswick is doing it better than Lakewood. (Supplemental reports are available which can compare and contrast the performance of similarly profiled students across different districts.)

Also, as I tried to explain before, in most districts, honors and AP courses cost more money than core curriculum/programming and the availability of which is a product of community expectations. It's one thing to pass the OGT. It's another to earn a diploma as well as gain the 21st Century skills needed to succeed after high school (skills often provided through "gateway" AP and honors courses).

However, Bill, your analysis, as flawed as I think it is, has inspired me as a taxpaying homeowner and father of three – none yet in school – to learn more about how our schools are advancing curriculum, imbedding technology and 21st Century skills and offering more gateway honors and AP courses across the board.

Speaking as a parent only, when I read the report card it meant nothing to me. My oldest son has been in the schools here for seven years and my youngest two one each and I wouldn't trade the teachers for anyone! They are exceptional here, above and beyond in most cases! It is pathetic that we have to be "judged" next to other districts based on the No Child Left Behind. Every teacher I have ever talked to, regardless of political party says the NCLB is the worst thing to happen to schools. Now is it fact or rumor that Rocky River sends their special ed kids to Lakewood and they get counted in our numbers? Just curious as I heard that recently.

PS My friend just visited from Strongsville and admitted many of the parents are doing their third grade children's homework because it is too hard for them to do!!!!!

Justine,

From belonging to the Rocky River School District at one point for a couple of years, I have to admit I don't recall seeing any special needs children. I just asked one of my daughters if they recall seeing any and she said not like they do here....When we were in River I had children both at the K-2(Goldwood primary) and then also at the 3-5( Kensington Elementary) schools. Just food for thought.

It's always interesting to see the busses heading off 90 down McKinley for the start of school.....Solon, Fairview, Westlake, North Olmsted..

Jeff

I thought both the PlainDlr and Sun Post (just hit my porch) did a good job in pointing out the inconsistencies.
Cleveland met 4 out of 30 standards, Lakewood met 25. Both are in the same rating.
Fariview Park met 22 out of 30, 3 less than Lakewood, and is EFFECTIVE, higher than Lakewood. North Olmsted met ONE more and is EXCELLENT.

Even the state of Ohio acknowledges that you cant compare a homogenous district like Brunswick to one like Lakewood, which is why the report cards include comparison figures for "similar" districts. On that note, Lakewood shows up pretty well, beating most similar districts. And the best scores are where it counts, among older students. I dont care that much if our 3rd grdrs arent that good at math, as long as they catch up in the end. Dont you?

David Anderson wrote:Again, Bill, some students are more expensive to teach than others.

The added expense has little to do with some students being more expensive to teach. Most of the difference comes from higher pay and benefits for teachers. For example, the Lakewood district pays the employee portion of the PERS pension contribution. Other districts recognize how ruinous it can be to their budgets so they insist on the employees paying the employee portion of PERS.

Lakewood spends $18 million dollars a year more than Brunswick on a per pupil bases and gets worse results. It doesn't surprise me that the consensus of opinion on this board is that there is nothing to be concerned about. If the figure were $180 million more the answers would be the same.

Mr. Call.

You simply cant brush off the reality that Lakewood has 50% more students with disabilities and 250% more economically-disadvantaged students than Brunswick. To deny that these students are indeed more expensive to educate than the perfect, affluent student is to deny reality even the most conservative types acknowledge.

You also toss out the $18 million difference between the two communities as though Lakewood and Brunswick are paying the entire price for their schools. Thats misleading. Lakewood gets more state and federal aid than Brunswick. Why? Because Lakewood has more students with disabilities and economically-disadvantaged students than Brunswick.

I know that when your only tool is a hammer everything starts to look like a nail, but you really do need to delve a little deeper into the relationship between schools, testing, performance, and student populations. It defies simple thinking. The best minds admit there is no easy answer and no, it DOESN'T come down to "spend more money"

One more thing. Brunswick has burned off its school surplus and now is so desperate to pass a school levy they are pitching an income tax. Lakewood hasnt raised school taxes in 6 yrs. We are both too old, Mr Call, to believe there is a free lunch anywhere.

Bill Call wrote:

Overall Lakewood schools do a good job. The fact that the High School continues to receive an excellent rating is a tribute to the students, faculty and support staff.

Bill

Thanks for that.

Carry on.


.

For many years of their career, teachers teach for wages that are often WELL below average, compared to others having similar educational backgrounds. As well, and unlike what often happens in the private sector, teachers often have to pay out-of-pocket for the multiple courses that they are now required to take to renew 5 year licenses.

True, after 20 years or so, teachers come to a liveable wage in SOME cities, but if you look at small towns across Ohio, many top salaries for teachers remain unbelievably low.

I for one, truthfully feel that I earned a competitive, truly liveable and fairly comfortable wage for a relatively short part of my teaching career.

Teachers established their right to bargain collectively through the legislature and the courts years ago. With this right clearly established, came whatever benefits could be negotiated with the various Boards of Education.

Any change of substance to existing contracts (and by the way, teachers are served by STRS, and not PERS) would need to come through negotiated agreements, and not by top-down pronouncements.

As anyone who is remotely aware of Ohio's school funding crisis would know, the school funding process has been repeatedly deemed unconstitutional by Ohio's Supreme Court. Hopefully with a new administration in Columbus, some of these wrongs can begin to be corrected.

I would invite anyone who feels that teachers are overpaid to step into a classroom and observe what goes on. I look at so many of my non-teaching friends who ended up making two or three times what I've made, and who have not had to go back to school constantly, or deal with violence in the classroom, or with the unfunded mandates that come along from time to time.

There would be much to learn...

Dee Martinez wrote:Mr. Call.

You simply cant brush off the reality that Lakewood has 50% more students with disabilities and 250% more economically-disadvantaged students than Brunswick.

According to the State of Ohio, Brunswick has 792 students labeled as disabled and Lakewood has 847.

http://ilrc.ode.state.oh.us/Downloads.asp

The file can be down loaded and sorted in Excel format. Feel free to double check my numbers. Sometimes the State data is hard to digest (alltimes?).

Bill Call wrote:

Dee Martinez wrote:Mr. Call.

You simply cant brush off the reality that Lakewood has 50% more students with disabilities and 250% more economically-disadvantaged students than Brunswick.

According to the State of Ohio, Brunswick has 792 students labeled as disabled and Lakewood has 847.

http://ilrc.ode.state.oh.us/Downloads.asp

The file can be down loaded and sorted in Excel format. Feel free to double check my numbers. Sometimes the State data is hard to digest (alltimes?).

Percentage of students with disabilities:

Brunswick 10.9 Lakewood 14.7

Percentage of economically-disadvantaged students

Brunswick 16.9 Lakewood 39.8 (my typo on the original post)

Percentage of non-English-proficient students

Brunswick 0.7 Lakewood 8.7


Doi you mean to tell me you can measure both with the same yardstick?
And why no response to the fact that while Lakewood has had a period of stability in terms of expenses and taxes, Brunswick is now desperate for cash?

Bill -

Despite my best attempts, I simply cannot convince you that the populations of the two districts are not very comparable.

The percentage of the total drives the cost associated with teaching students with physical and mental learning disabilities, who are economically disadvantaged and have limited English proficiency, not the actual number.

Brunswick's ODE enrollment figure is 7,269
10.9% or 792 students with disabilities
16.9% or 1,228 economically disadvantaged
0.7% or 50 students with limited English proficiency

Lakewood's ODE enrollment is 5,755
14.7% or 845 students with disabilities
39.8% or 2,290 economically disadvantaged
8.7% or 500 students with limited English proficiency

(Note that in some cases the same student could be in all three categories.)

I know I keep repeating myself, Bill, but there are Federal and state mandated teaching licensures and teacher/student ratios for supporting students in these three categories. These mandates can more than double the average cost of teaching students in these categories and inflating the per pupil expenditure across the board.

Do you know for a fact that the Brunswick system is not contributing to their teachers' retirement plan?

I will try to provide an analysis of the Federal, state and local portions of Lakewood's per pupil expenditure.