The Observation Deck

I jumped into the fray not because I have anything against the Boy Scouts or because I want to tear them down, but because:

-- The Boy Scouts were being incorrectly conflated with the Girl Scouts. They are unaffiliated organizations and I don't believe the the Girl Scouts dismiss scout leaders or members on the basis of sexual orientation, and

-- The Boy Scouts of America is on record as excluding homosexuals and fought for that right all the way up to the supreme court. This is a fact and you can read easily find the court's decision. I'm not making this up to tear the Boy Scouts down. The Boy Scouts are a private group that chooses to exclude a class of people which the Supreme Court said is their right. I have no problem with that. As I said if a group I was affiliated took a stand like the Boy Scouts I would work very hard to reform that group.

The Girls Scouts seem able to espouse very similar values as the Boy Scouts without resorting to institutionalized bigotry. I'm glad that you all had such positive experiences with scouting. I just wish rather than getting so defensive of the criticism of the Boy Scouts' policy, you would rally around the people who are victims of this policy. They are the ones being excluded and denied the wonderful experiences you were able to have.

I agree, tearing down an organization is easy. Making the changes to right a wrong is the hard part.

A little input from someone who actually is gay...

This topic is certainly one that I have thought of quite a bit. My partner and I have a son, and I am sure that one day he will come home and ask if he can be a Cub Scout. The answer to that question will be a difficult one.

I grew up with brothers, uncles, and a grandfather who were all Cub/Boy Scouts. Like many of you, I do believe that their core values are strong ones. I would love for my son to experience the opportunities that the BSA can provide. However, on the other side of the equation, I struggle to justify giving my money and access to my son to an organization that actively discriminates against the very type of family from which he comes. He will receive enough mean-spirited messages from random, ignorant people along the way while he's growing up; how I could put him in any organization that has an official policy of bigotry and discrimination against his family?

It's a shame really. But as long as religious organizations can pick and choose which parts of the Bible they use to discriminate against entire groups of people, they will continue to hold sway over other organizations who look to them for policy guidance.

Just my $.02...

Laurie

As far as being sympathetic and sensitive to the needs of others is concerned, growing up with multiple physical "differences" has in fact, made me very sensitive, personally.

People who knew me as a Special Education teacher, know that I have advocated very strongly over the years for universal acceptance of that population. Were I to detect overt prejudice of any kind, with any group of which I were affiliated, I would not hesitate to speak truth to power, and have done so repeatedly in the past.

As I have stated, and unlike what has been implied, Scouts are simply not guilty of overt bigotry, in any sense of the word- at least from my point of view. They simply stand on their Law, and for positive good.

To be a member of the Knights of Columbus, a Catholic, a Lutheran, an Elk, a Freemason, a Jew, a Democrat, a Republican, or any other group involves the affirmation of that particular group's positions; allowing of course, for some limited "loyal opposition" at times.

We work with the groups that we have. If we wanted to, we could bash churches next, or teachers...Oops, I just spent the first part of the week defending them.

I'd rather accentuate the good, and quietly address concerns as they arise.

There is a greater point that needs to be made regarding our youth groups, and that is- what kind of people are leading them?

Boy Scouting has a comprehensive Youth Protection Policy where leaders and Scouts are trained to recognize and report abusive behavior of any type. Hopefully, any good youth group will have similar policies in place whereby adults are screened, before they are permitted to work with children.

To all Lakewood parents.

As we enter the summer months, irrespective of what group your child wants to join, ask about the leadership.

What safeguards are in place to assure that adult leaders don't have police records involving children, or violence?

Additionally, as a parent, get involved and stay involved. Know what's going on, where it goes on, and when. Talk to your child, and do so often.

Sidestepping that whole Scout controversy, forget the labels. Are your youth leaders trustworthy and reliable? Have they been checked out as not having had negative experiences with children in the past?

Thoughtful people will continue to debate the social issues that have come into our society. We have much to learn from each other, as we open more and more doors.

Youth groups however, need your support now. Why not find one of your choice and lend a hand this summer? You will find it to be a most rewarding experience.

I struggle to justify giving my money and access to my son to an organization that actively discriminates against the very type of family from which he comes

Laurie, again it really depends entirely upon the troop/pack in question. And while the National leadership may have a discriminatory policy, its really no different from finding a church that welcomes you and your partner irrespective of what the synod, bishop or prebytery dictates. And, "active discrimination" would imply that weekly meetings, right after the Pledge, Oath and Promise, have a session devoted to homophobia. It just isn't the way it is.

While I'm certain your son would probably enjoy the pinewood derby, learn fire safety, maybe learn to paddle a canoe and pitch a tent, no troop in which I was ever involved embarked on an examination of the parental relationships of the boy's family. And if they had, I would have found myself another troop.

Jeff

To get a little off thread, the best line I ever heard from any award show, was Ellen saying "Without gays, Jews, and Blacks there would be no award show" in response to across the board prejudice at the Academy Awards. While this does not appear to have anything to do with the Boy Scouts, the reason I applauded this statement, should be obvious. When we sit back to watch "entertainment", no one cares about sexual orientation. When we rush our child to the Emergency room, how many ask "Are you gay or straight" to the physician in charge of our child's life? When your child finds a teacher, a coach, a mentor that inspires him or her, would you care what the sexual orientation is? Yes this subject is tiring, but it shouldn't be a subject.

There will be a day when it does not matter, as it shouldn't. But that day won't come, until people stand up and stop it, in every single way that they can. When I was younger and exploring different churches, I sat eagerly at a Baptist church looking for spirituality. They passed around a petition that day to ban gays from the military when that was the hot topic. I still remember the feeling of my stomach dropping. I got up and walked out and never went back. I may not know much, but I know the difference between love and hate.

This is not an attack on the Boy Scouts. Actually they sound so fun right now, I want to join, and I am a forty year old female! But if we pretend that part about banning gays doesn't matter, we enable it. I would guess that most boys join at such a young age that sexuality isn't even an issue, and girls are pretty "yucky". So if they are part of that family and one day discover that they are gay, where does that leave them? Feeling the same ostrasized and lonely feeling they feel in the rest of the world, only this was part of their family. I don't know. I am emotional this week, but I agree with Mark, it just shouldn't be an issue.

I am not real familar with the workings of the Boy Scouts but I have a question.

At the local level - If I am openly gay and I have a son in Boy Scouts and I want to take a leadership position, is that a problem ?

There are troops that have openly gay participants. And no... I wont paint a big bulls-eye on them on an open forum.

Minority rights might have come a long way, but they have a long way to go. The scouts, at the troop level in MY experience, are a fine organization with caring, tolerant people at the helm. As for the correlation between girl and boy scouts - my experience was 20 years ago. Life was quite different then. I am glad that they have progressed; however, at this point at the highest levels they have simply chosen to ignore the issue and leave it up to the troops themselves to decide what they want to do.

Which is not necessarily as tolerant as I would hope to see in any national organization.

In my mind, I believe that if we populate the scouts with caring, tolerant people, children and adults, as they move up through the ranks, their values will impact the rest of the organization and given time they will find themselves changing their official position.

That doesn't mean that I would suggest to refrain from actively trying to affect change. I do think we should always strive to eliminate all forms of intolerance; however, if you cannot eliminate the group (and you cant) then doesn't it make more sense to try to move them from within as well as through social pressures?

As for a private group having the right to determine its own membership criteria - while I may not like the policy, I suggest that their right to peacefully assemble in a private group of their own choosing is an essential component of our civil liberties.

Always,

Charyn

David

Your question would best be addressed by Scout Headquarters in Cleveland at 216-861-6060. Ask for an executive.

Scouting is staffed by volunteers, but paid staff coordinate activities and handle regulatory and registration issues; in cooperation with local troops.

To be frank, there can be tension between paid staff and volunteers with a variety of issues, from camping permits, to peanut sales.

I fully understand people wanting to be fair and inclusive. Balanced against that, is the right of free private association in this country.

I have experienced a similar dilemma as you describe, but in a different way. A friend of mine belongs to a beautiful church, yet the policies of that church speak against "secret societies".

As a member of a fraternal organization that I know to be decent and honorable, I am troubled by the policy of that church, and I'm therefore uncomfortable around that situation.

So being America, I am part of another church family that is not bothered by fraternal groups.

Frankly with the Scouts, the only agenda that I've seen, is good positive character development. Were I in your hypothetical situation and I otherwise was convinced of Scouting's benefits, I think I might just be an unofficial outstanding parent supporter for your son, and his troop, rather than a registered leader. By your hypothetical example- you, or the person you represent by your example, could open hearts and minds even more; in a positive way.

Our world after all, consists of imperfect people, and organizations continuing to learn, as well.

At the end of the day, we'll still have the Scouts, the churches, the schools, and the other institutions in our lives.

Whatever they are, and whatever they become, rests in our hands.

Since churches have been mentioned here, I want to point out, on a positive note, that Lakewood Congregational Church (United Church of Christ) at 1375 W. Clifton Blvd. (221-9555) is on an Open and Affirming Exploration process that started two years ago. This stemmed from a series of Bible studies discussing Biblical perspectives on sexual orientation. They are encouraging their congregation to become active in participating to help this process. I have never attended this church, but I plan to visit it, as it sends one of the most loving messages churches can send, that all are loved and welcome.

While I am not gay, I know and love people who are, so this issue is very important to me. I think the responses in this thread have been loving and thoughtful and shows hope for the future, regardless of policies in place now. Another reason to be proud to live in Lakewood. I can't imagine all suburbs or areas responding with such thought and compassion for others.

Justine, you bring up something interesting, in that when LCC does become an O&A church, they may encounter the same problem that Pilgrim UCC faced with the Boy Scouts.

Pilgrim had Tremont's first BSA troop meet in its building for many years, but when the national BSA decided to institutionalize a discriminatory policy, Pilgrim (an O&A church) had a problem.

The troop was asked to sign a promise that they would not discriminate and they had no problem doing that. The national office thought differently and ordered the troop to find new quarters.

I applaud LCC for taking the journey to become O&A.

It will be interesting to see. I applaud them too and hope the LO will do a story on them (hint to Jim). They have a series of workshops coming up over the next several months that I think all are invited to, but I will check My neighbors are members and are truly examples of spirituality and love. Their high school daughter was one of the many teens who slept outside to raise money and bring attention to the homeless. She also has spent considerable time in the summer volunteering her time to help others. Actions speak louder than words. While many preach one thing, watching love in action is another. Sorry to deviate from the Boy Scout subject, but I think this important on the subject as a whole and for Lakewood.

LCC needs to find someone from within their ranks to tell their story...

hm I will get on it.

Justine Cooper wrote:There will be a day when it does not matter, as it shouldn't. But that day won't come, until people stand up and stop it, in every single way that they can.

I agree Justine, the day will come eventually.

However tolerant a local chapter might be, the organization itself is bigoted. By being a member, you espouse and financially support the bigotry. It would be different if it were individual troops or members, but it is the official position of the BSA.

The scouts officially excluding gay people is in my mind as heinous as if the scouts were excluding black people...oh wait they used to do that too. Well up until they allowed segregated troops.

If the scouts today were to exclude black people, or asians, or handicapped people, etc. there would be a moral outcry from here to heaven saying how wrong it was. But they don't, they've learned better, learned to think differently.

One day, the same will be true for homosexuals. I guarantee we'll look back 50 years from now see the utter futility of our discrimination.

Charyn Compeau wrote:As for a private group having the right to determine its own membership criteria - while I may not like the policy, I suggest that their right to peacefully assemble in a private group of their own choosing is an essential component of our civil liberties.

So if the scouts wanted to exclude African Americans or Jews, should that be their right as a private organization?

And since the boy scouts are taxpayer funded, are they truly a "private organization"?

Just some things to ponder I guess.