Panhandlers in Lakewood

[Kenneth Warren]

Shawn:

It’s not West Park I have in mind. Try southeast of West 140th.

Your point, if I can see it, formulate it and share it accurately, is: One need not overlook the bad apples setting up shop in our neighborhoods and apartment complexes.

I am not.

In fact, if you track the anti-social networks of the bad apples, you will see there is a degree of visitation from friends and relatives, which creates opportunities to create more chaos in the Wood, sometimes in a family feud, domestic violence register.

Think of the blow out this summer on Lakewood. That’s the new pattern.

Beachhead compounded by the chaotic kinship network.

There are chaos-agents/bad apples rolling through apartments and rolling through the schools creating de-stabilizing effects that will challenge the community’s good order.

The re-building and displacement of the poor from the Cleveland core creates these waves. You can see it in Rocky River, too.

Again this is not unique to Lakewood. But the experience is new and likewise the challenge.

Which is why I suggest a police levy and police alignment community policing strategies with the schools.

For decades the library has hired off duty Lakewood Police, and we work with the schools, family and schools on applying moral pressure to behavioral problems. It’s a rather simple model that works and creates social order.

Kenneth Warren

[Shawn Juris]

Purely devil's advocate on this one so please don't use this to represent me in the future. If Lakewood is attracting the poor of Cleveland wouldn't it make more sense to cut back the resources? Sure police increases are one more expensive way to control the situation. But if those in need of service (those that we're characterizing here as living off the dole and looking to commit crime) have the gravy trains cut off and can't afford it here, won't they be forced onward?
One might see it as adding taxes to pay for police who are needed because we offer such great social service programs (paid for with tax dollars) which attract the poor which don't need to pay the taxes but recieve the benefits... then attract relatives and friends that commit crime. What is the antecedent of this problem?
Again, just a thought to consider or dismiss. I'm sure that there are plenty of arguments and ways to misinterpret this one.

[Kenneth Warren]

Shawn:

To be a devil's advocate, you need to supply more precise and socially firm identifications of the gravy train.

I'll take a stab and leave Beelzebub's wine with the gravy.

Good public schools, steps ahead of Cleveland, are an attraction to people looking for social uplift and a way out of chaos into a safer environment. Not all these people are bad apples, but some are, and they test social order and drain resources. Here is the city's biggest challenge, and I hope your work with the Youth Master Plan will focus on what to do with bad apples and bad bets.

SSI is a life line to resources for the disadvantaged, perhaps the gravy train in one minds, but one we can't control locally.

Welfare reform has limited the gravy train.

Lakewood Christian Service does provide food and services. I don't think you mean this program.

A wiser devil's advocate than me, once said: "You know what a man buys with his last welfare check - a gun."

Kenneth Warren

[Mike Deneen]

Poor folks choose Lakewood over Cleveland for the same reason wealthier folks do.....namely, safer streets and better schools.

[Lynn Farris]

It sounds to me like Judge Carroll is on the right track. I've always heard good things about him.

Even Rudolf Guliani (I can't believe I am touting him lol) found that the problem of panhandling is not a one size fits all problem. They had to spend a lot of time educating the police on how to handle this problem. Not everyone that panhandles is evil or should be arrested. They all have different reasons and if we don't address the root cause of the problem, the problem is bound to repeat. It could be the person has mental problems, addictions, is truly destitute and doesn't know how to negotiate the vast social service network. We shouldn't be paying the tremendous cost of jail (or building bigger jails) when we need to get someone medicine for example.

I know I'm going to sound sappy, but one of the things I admire most about my husband is his respect for people. We run into panhandlers in Cleveland often. Most people advert their eyes, cross the street and do everything to avoid these people that are down on their luck. My husband doesn't, he talks to them. He knows most of their names and their stories. He treats them with the respect that every human being deserves. He doesn't always give them money - but he always shows them respect. He has really opened my eyes to this fact as I was one of the people who would have been scared of what I didn't know and crossed the street. I haven't had an experience where someone has really intimidated me, that is a different question and if someone is harming you that has to be dealt with differently.

I'm not a good person to determine if we need more police. I have a great deal of respect for the policemen that I have met in Lakewood. But it does bug me when I see them riding up and down Lake Ave. on beautiful summer nights on their bikes, while the bars on Detroit are not being patroled - the bars seem like a bigger problem to me. It bugs me that I think the scheduling could be better. We need more police on Friday and Saturday nights, than on Tuesday mornings and I'm sure we do have more on Friday and Saturday night, but to a novice it seems like we need a lot more proportionally). It bugs me that I think the police could pay their salary plus with citations for drunk driving on Friday and Saturday night and for whatever reason don't seem to intent on cleaning up the Flats light situation. But maybe I'm wrong and the problem isn't management and scheduling but more officers are needed.

In another thread, Mark Reinhold pointed out the comparisons between Cleveland Heights and Lakewood. This is the site that he cited http://www.city-data.com/city/Ohio.html

So let's really discuss the budget. What are our per capita rates compared to surrounding communities? What are our financial priorities? What are out potential resources and how are we exploiting them fully?

Yes! ... that's all this was about.

I quoted wages just to say that Lakewood was a good and HIGH paid place to work already....

FOR EXAMPLE: Rates are important in my mind for looking at crime and police wages.

I have compared Cleveland Heights and Lakewood because I think we are similar communities.

CLEVELAND HEIGHTS

109 TOTAL ENFORCEMENTS OFFICERS $477,352 total cost to community w/ an average salary of $52,552 per officer ( the big cities data does not include clerical here it is counted elsewhere)

LAKEWOOD

88 TOTAL ENFORCEMENTS OFFICERS $540,054 total cost to community w/ an average salary of $73,643 per officer ( the big cities data does not include clerical here it is counted elsewhere)

I will not go into total crime now... but in every statistically documented crime Cleveland Heights has a lower total. (I can not reference un reported crime) 2004 data. Yes the community is smaller, but they have more officers.

So like Bill, I'm concerned how much more officers a police levy would gain us. And I really dislike the idea of increasing our property tax, which is already outrageously high and impacts senior citizens who can little afford it - a more progressive income tax - taxing the people that work in our city and benefit from the police force may make sense too. Make it a joint income tax with the schools and we solve 2 problems if you really think we need to do this. And how would we control this - wouldn't they be able to take money now allocated for police from the general fund and reapply it, which would not give the public what they voted for, when they increased the tax? Lawyers - help here - we saw them do this with the lottery dollars for education.

I don't know if we can legally have a bar tax, where a percent of "sales tax" is added to all drinks purchased to cover the increased cost of police. I dare say that a large part of our police needs are tied into the bars and the after effects of the bars. Maybe that is a county wide issue that the county can address and then proportionally allocate the money back to the cities.

JMHO[/quote]

[Joe McClain]

Not just the Wood.

I was never panhandled in Lakewood. But....In my second week of living in Williamsburg, I was panhandled on Scotland Street.

[stephen davis]

Joe,

That's just because you reek of affluence in your Wake Forest Medical School sweatshirt.

Steve

[Kenneth Warren]

Lynn:

I hear you on the property taxes.

People may not see the safety challenge as worth the cost.

I am not making the business case, simply testing my intuitive sense of lack against your checks and balances.

In a situation where trust in government, planning and accountability is lacking, there can be games played that take away money from the general fund going to police with the addition of a police levy.

So there are many details and concerns to be worked out. It’s an election year. Maybe the candidates might have some information and opinion on the situation.

In Ohio average ratio of police officers per 1000 population is 2.12.

With roughly 56,000 for population in Lakewood that average ratio of 2.12 would yield roughly 118 police officers.

The City of Cleveland’s ratio is 3.73.

Is Lakewood staffing the police department and fire departments at comparable ratios?

How "me too" clauses in Fire and Police contracts would play out are all details to investigate.

Asking for a police levy may be a bone-headed idea, but one I believe worthy of consideration at least on the LO Deck, to test the waters and register sense of need and gather the attention of the powers that be.

On the Cleveland Heights comparison, I recall someone mentioning to me that Cleveland Heights has a different model than Lakewood, perhaps with more academy police working. My recollection is rather vague. But there is a difference of some kind.

Kenneth Warren

[Jim O'Bryan]

It sounds to me like Judge Carroll is on the right track. I've always heard good things about him.

Lynn

I went to one of the meetings the Judge Carroll was having with other members of this group and I was completely blown away with the discussion and the plans. While seemingly regional in thought process it was more a way to work together and keep a city's identity. In my thought process good regionalism.

Part of the plan was to seek funding to build a hospital jail for those in the group. Educate police to see the problems of mental handicaps, drug and alcohol abuse. Address those needs immediately as they entered the system. As they had special needs, and special legal problems.

As for the police on the bikes in the summer on Lake. It is a problem I often make myself. Except I am riding down Detroit and seeing police walking a beat in the bar area, and wondering if my fellow homies are safe on Lake. So maybe it is all good.

They have had beat police in the bars and "mainstreet" areas all summer.

I will always see the welfare system as a needed safety net to catch fellow Americans that have fallen down on their luck. Can it be abused, sure. Can it become addictive, sure. But i would rather work on catching the abusers, and those stuck in the loop, than miss one deserving American that needs it to feed his family. To me this is what an educated healthy democracy can do. It is decent, like education and national health-care.

For after you fall off the welfare roles or take it away, it offers a good family man, mother, child not many choices. Go to curb and starve to death as a family, or steal some food. Break a window, get a gun. Much easier and cheaper to keep them out of the legal system. I have to think the difference between robbery, burglary, theft and white collar crime is the white collar crook is wearing w white collar to work and is greedy, the other crimes are of need in most cases.

.

[Charyn Compeau]

I have to think the difference between robbery, burglary, theft and white collar crime is the white collar crook is wearing w white collar to work and is greedy, the other crimes are of need in most cases.

And according to most sociological/psychological studies - you would be wrong on both accounts.

How many crimes are reported where the stolen property was bread? Or Milk? There are some that are for formula and diapers (the two most expensive things during infant-hood); however, most crimes are related to mobile phones, car stereos, jewelry, guns, etc.

These are not the things people steal because they are in dire need of them for the survival of their family. Depression, drugs, lack of social norms that decry these things are all related to the real reasons they occur as well as juvenielle acts that 'push the boundaries'.

Similarly - white collar criminals that clearly have no need, might seem simply greedy, and by some definitions that is loosely correct, they are actually reacting to some very complicated psychological compulsion.

Does this make them less responsible, no... but it isn't just "I want".

For some it is a control issue (I can do what I want and no-one can tell me otherwise). For others a self-esteem (one-upping the company or boss makes them seem smarted, more powerful, etc.). For others it is an addiction - just like gambling or overeating. Powerful and compulsive.

Take, for example, the shopaholic turned embezzler. This person is certainly not greedy - more often they will give the shirt off of their back to someone if asked, but always they tend to feel as if they was not successful because someone else (anyone else) has more stuff. They may end up stealing quite a sum and buy (or steal) many tangible things... most of which may be hidden, left in bags and never opened, or given away.

It is not an uncommon story - nor is the story of the people that do this beucase they feel somehow "wronged" by society or their employer.

Again, I do NOT in ANY way believe that these underlying issues relieve people of their responsibility in a civilized society; however, the point is to say that we must understand the reasons these crimes exist. For if we do not understand why the crimes occur we cannot effectively create or improve our infrastructure for dealing with, or preventing them

FFT
Charyn

[David Lay]

I've been panhandled as I was coming out of my apartment building.

[Mike Deneen]

WILL POST FOR FOOD

[Jim O'Bryan]

Charyn

While I agree with you notes and your deep look in the psychology of the criminal.

Drugs, food, living, etc is still "need."

Compulsion, habits, getting over, etc, is still filling the "greed."

Certainly it becomes grayer with ever step back. Do white color criminals have drug problems, gambling problems etc. Sure, but they are, are merely living through choice outside their means.

While the family without income, is a need thing.

I still wonder at what point does dad sit the family down and say, "We have no money, and the help is not coming. Let's got to the corner and starve together."

At some point survival takes over.



.

[kate parker]

WILL POST FOR FOOD

quoted for HAHA

[Lynn Farris]

Ken,

You state"

In a situation where trust in government, planning and accountability is lacking, there can be games played that take away money from the general fund going to police with the addition of a police levy.

So there are many details and concerns to be worked out. It’s an election year. Maybe the candidates might have some information and opinion on the situation.

Again I'm forced to quote another Republcan President Ronald Regan - Trust but Verify. It isn't that I don't trust government - but you can't expect what you don't inspect.

In Ohio average ratio of police officers per 1000 population is 2.12.

With roughly 56,000 for population in Lakewood that average ratio of 2.12 would yield roughly 118 police officers.

The City of Cleveland’s ratio is 3.73.

Is Lakewood staffing the police department and fire departments at comparable ratios?

What was the Lakewood police staffing ratios in the past? Have they gone down as the population has dropped? Or has crime gotten so much worse, that the ratio's had to get higher in Lakewood and in Ohio?

On the Cleveland Heights comparison, I recall someone mentioning to me that Cleveland Heights has a different model than Lakewood, perhaps with more academy police working. My recollection is rather vague. But there is a difference of some kind.

Since the Cleveland Heights model seems to be working less cost, more police, lower crime - can we figure it out and duplicate it in Lakewood? Seems like a win win situation to me. They have 10 less policemen than we need according to the Ohio Average ratios.

Jim,

It does seem like the judicial system is on the right track.

Charyn

Again, I do NOT in ANY way believe that these underlying issues relieve people of their responsibility in a civilized society; however, the point is to say that we must understand the reasons these crimes exist. For if we do not understand why the crimes occur we cannot effectively create or improve our infrastructure for dealing with, or preventing them

This is my point exactly. Jailing people stops the problem only for a short period. To solve the problem you have to figure out what the problem is and then deal with the problem. And it isn't a one size fits all problem. And police must be trained in how to deal with the variety of problems.