The Observation Deck

hehe - last time I was at MyFriends, I went there alone. The waitress accidentally (I assume) gave me someone else's check, and then she left the building. It was turned upside down of course. When I was ready to leave, I turn over the check to see how much it is. It is close to $50, with 3 or 4 steak dinners on it, etc.! I politely explained to the manager at the cash register that it was not my check. He was not convinced. He kept saying if it wasn't my check, why did I have it? I thought he was going to call the CPD. Finally he let me go with just paying for what I actually ordered but glared at me on the way out.

Last time I was at Applebees, the food and service were pretty good. The call ahead seating also worked. For putting up with my date, she should have paid for everything (not Applebees fault, though). At least I got out of there paying Dutch.

just my experience - not necessarily indicative of other people's experiences

Who are the snobs on Saturday morning at Marcs parking lot? Some of the funniest snobs I remember over the years were at the grocery store in Brecksville--it's hilarious how the women order from the deli counter there

Doug

PS Jim, my signature was never meant to be aimed at you in particular, but if the shoe...

Apparently there was no value. I asked a question, to start this thread. I didn't lie about the grocery line. The fact I happen to remember a true story that related to the path of the thread and I THOUGHT might lend itself to some humor has no value, no more than Stan's post about his agent.

Seems I've been over-posting or saying something wrong often lately, so with that I'll take a break.

I apologize to those I may of offended.

Mark Crnolatas wrote:Seems I've been over-posting or saying something wrong often lately, so with that I'll take a break.

I apologize to those I may of offended.

Mark


How dramatic. Again I am not good at this posting thing, preferring to work face to face with people. There is no right or wrong post on the board, as we all take ownership of the posts. I myself see things as a positive or counter productive, but that is only me. I am but one person on the Deck. Mark every one of your posts should be considered as important as mine, DL's, Ken's, etc. But am I allowed to disagree with the post or the premise?

Look at the responses, we have found that snobs are at the baseball game, Applebee's, in parking lots. That at least two other people have found the low art of snobbery in all walks of life, which I think we all knew to be true, not just a Lakewood problem.

This would be seen as good news by many of us.

I also now know next time I run into you we can talk about Buddy Rich, the maniac drummer that would never stop drumming between songs.

There is value in the discussion, I just wondered out loud the current trend to report over heard conversations. My thoughts are based on my perceptions in life. I rarely try to over hear conversations, but when I do which does happen, and it is about things I have a "take" on I often try to engage in a conversation. I have met many interesting people this way. I now almost always tell them to take it to the Deck and throw it out for discussion. Of course I am one that believe Lakewood Self Esteem is our biggest problem. Self Esteem cuts both ways.

I was having coffee with another board member who was getting a kick out of the fact in another thread that while 6 people at a table were hosted into the discussion board, and their opinions were fought for as being valuable. The person that questioned their opinion with his own opinion got no respect for his opinion. It is an interesting phenomenon.

All opinions and thoughts are of value to someone. On the Observation Deck I would hope they are all at least equal. I would also hope the person that posts their opinion/thoughts/facts/conversation starters, etc. Would get a tiny bit more respect for taking the time to post it, and take ownership of the thought and the thread.

Doug

I rarely take offense to anything. But I love busting chops, as I imagine you do with the every growing list on your signature.

One of the things I get the biggest kick out of is how a person is able to form "opinions" pretty accurately on people, based on posts.


peace


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In looking at Mark Crnolatas's initial snob post, I notice that he stated what he had overheard but did not give his own take or relate any personal experience regarding snobbery.

Ms. Dean was the only person who actually gave her opinion or experience regarding snobbery, and so far, that has not prompted any discussion.

When I first saw Jim O'Bryan's responses, I called him to yell at him about insisting that people post in a particular manner and I was tempted to make a sarcastic remark to Bryan Schwegler informing him that he evidently has not drunk enough of the Lakewood Brand® Kool Aid.

I believe OB's point is that the initial "I overheard" posts are sometimes not followed by the writer's own point of view or experience. This does not encourage a discussion where we may honestly communicate.

In another thread, Joan Roberts chided OB for cheerleading the McKinley Class of '64 (your opinion doesn't count unless you've lived here forever) which seemed to her like a form of snobbery.

Has Mark experienced snobbery in Lakewood? Here?

If Mark doesn't share his experiences with snobbery, how are we to explore the attitudes in Lakewood?

Meanwhile, I'll tell a story about a newcomer to Lakewood who wanted to meet his neighbors and get involved with the community. He volunteered with the Adopt-A-Spot program. He was volunteering at a leaf humus sale when I met him and we talked about how he felt that he'd found a great way to become part of the 'hood.

DL

I will admit that I see snobbery the measure of the person, not a city.


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I am a snob. That is why I live in Lakewood. We are cooler than Cleveland. We are the envy of the suburbs. They want our people, businesses, and culture. The Phoenix is the best coffee shop in the state. Need I mention the Observer? What about the Library? My neighbors are great. I would not live in any other community. When I go to other cities they are nice, but not home. We should all be snobs.

I said I would take a break, and I will, not for dramatics, but to allow time to pass, but since me and my posts are being discussed in the open court of this forum, I would like to defend myself.

When I initially posted the "I heard "....I assumed, and there was my mistake, that a conclusion could be drawn from relating what I had heard. I did nott know at the time that if I would post an "I heard" without a particular parameter, as dl stated " but did not give his own take or relate any personal experience regarding snobbery." I would be making a post that would put myself in this awkward and embarrassing position.

Apparantly I was in error to post in that way, and have learned from this.
While my writing style or posting style may lack certain qualities or I might omit something by mistake, I havn't seen an extended chastising on this forum befor now with the exception of the thread involving Mr. Batdorf (spelling may be wrong , if so I apologize).

Jim, my statement was not meant to be dramatic. I apparantly have offended you, or shown some sort of lack of intellect, insight or something negative that drew your attention and angered you, or at least that is what it appears to have done. Being the publisher, you have that right, and while others may post erroneously, I have personal feelings also, and I don't believe that an extended discussion chastising me or my post in public was needed. Maybe again I'm wrong and it was needed to set an example.

A simple private message telling me that "your post was ignorant" or "your post was not useful on this board," might have been another route, rather than making me a target of the bosses wrath.

Point: I might suggest that a rule be made of such types of posts so that myself and others might know what and what not to say, so as to not incur this type of attention and embarrassment. My last few posts seemed to draw similiar attention so maybe I need to rethink how I post or write.
That is the reason for the break.

Again I apologize. No dramatics. I have to live in this city and meet others also who might read this board, while carrying my name with me. If I'm to be known from this board as "the guy who" ...it stays with me, right? I feel it does. Keyword "feel". All I have been trying to do with any of my posts, was to contribute things, which I thought had some value.

I was under the impression that my post was as valuable as the post inquiring about where to get an appliance.
My story about the "dead" guy is true, and was apparantly a wrong thing to relate.
Now I'll be quiet and stop MY part of this thread.

Peace..

Mark-

I'm interested in your opinion.

Since this is a discussion board, discussion happens.

I'm genuinely sorry if you feel hurt by any responses to your post. You are not ignorant. Certainly, it was not my intention to demean you in any way or embarrass you.

This is one of the problems of written communication as opposed to a real, live, face-to-face conversation.

In trying to draw you out and encourage you to share your opinions, it seems as though I have accomplished the opposite of what I had in mind.

Therefore, I am in error and I sincerely apologize.

Mark Crnolatas wrote:Apparantly I was in error to post in that way, and have learned from this.
While my writing style or posting style may lack certain qualities or I might omit something by mistake, I havn't seen an extended chastising on this forum befor now with the exception of the thread involving Mr. Batdorf (spelling may be wrong , if so I apologize).

Mark

Stop taking this stuff so personal. There is no right way or wrong way to post on this board. We have but one rule - Use your real name.

From there it goes out to general discussion. We all know from the point it is posted, it is up to the stream of thought where it ends up. I could post about a Large SUV trying to make a point on SUV's gas consumption and kick off a discussion about the values of red vehicles, widths of roads, if they tip over, or even if the owners tip enough, etc.

Every person jumping in would have a valid comment to make, and none should be taken more or less seriously than the other.

During a post a while back, Charyn mentioned to me in private that as the "publisher," my thoughts are taken more seriously than other people's. I would hope that this is not the case, and it would be silly if it were true. I probably have the least amount of in school time of anyone that posts here. I became the publisher because no one else at the table was foolish enough to be willing to write the check. Not because of some dream, or desire. So why would my thoughts be worth more than yours?

I have one problem, negative posts about Lakewood that have no basis in facts. This is for one very simple reason. The paper and much of what others are trying to do is build or define the Lakewood Brand. So that we can market it, attract new businesses and generally retain our property values over the long haul. These are my reasons, they might not be your's or Charyn's or Joan's or the Mayor's or DL's etc. But they are mine, I do not hide the fact, I post it and most of my effort is to make things better hopefully for all. It is frustrating when "overheard" is given more credibility than posts from real people who took the time and effort to put it our there with their name on it.

Would you take offense if I posted, "I overheard that Mark's wife can't sing." While it might be a legitimate opinion we both know it is a lie. Your wife has one of the most beautiful voices I have heard. I am always amazed she did not end up with some sort of record deal. The brand you are trying to build with the band is similar to the brand I am hoping to build with the Lakewood Observer.

On another note I get frustrated because we have lost another opportunity to do a proper drill down. Why did they think it was snobbery? Who from where said what? is it a misconception, or is it true? How can we all work to change this perception. Why on earth would one person in the hollar believe they are better or worse than another in the hollar? Was it race, was it lifestyle, was it clothing, was it... The post begs for answers yet we have none.

One thing that is making news for Lakewood outside of Lakewood is the Observation Deck. I get calls and email all the time from people that are amazed at the amount of real civil discourse that flows through the board. They are blown away by two facts: real names, civility. No one ever thought it was possible. Those two facts are changing other discussion boards all over the country. I have to think for the better.

The LO website is quickly closing in on 1,000,000 hits/400,000 pages views a month. do the math 460 signed up, 1,000 people taking part. these people are not hitting 1,000 pages a month. This site is under much scrutiny from Washington to Russia, from San Francisco to London. It would be way to self serving to publish kudos and letters. But let me assure you and everyone else, we are freaking people out, and I do not believe it is The Beck Center discussion or Chef Geoff's recipes(sorry Jeff). Lakewood is building a brand all over for a city where discussion is viewed as a good thing. That energized citizens and people with ideas are supported not ignored. A city where all voices are equal if you are willing to take ownership of the thought, the action and the plan.

Sorry for the drift. Sorry that you feel chastised in anyway. All I ever do is speak my mind. The amount of weight you give it is on you. But if you want to see how I feel about the weight of my comments in the big picture, you might want to read my signature since day one of this project. "If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad. If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."

--Dalai Lama

About Terry Batdorf - let's not forget two things. 1) Terry called me out to the fence at 3:30 for a proper ass kicking. 2) I took great pride is adding his name to the list of names that made this possible in the "Resolution" list. The board leans left, it takes great courage and pride from some on the right to jump into the Mosh Pit we call the Lakewood Observer. It also shows me the project is working.

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Jim O'Bryan wrote:Every person jumping in would have a valid comment to make, and none should be taken more or less seriously than the other.

During a post a while back, Charyn mentioned to me in private that as the "publisher," my thoughts are taken more seriously than other people's. I would hope that this is not the case, and it would be silly if it were true.

But Jim, like it or not, that's the reality.Your words and opinions on what belongs here, do hold more sway with the general members because you are the publisher.

It would be like the President saying, it would be silly for people to treat him better because he's just a regular guy. Reality of the matter is that he's not.

You chose to be the publisher, that carries some responsibility and, like it or not, more weight to your comments on this board.

Now if you put in context the way you respond to some of the threads in this space with the reality of the fact that you're the publisher of the Observer maybe you'll begin to see why some of us feel the way we do and are sometimes quite taken aback by your strong responses to some of the posts.

Bryan

It is always impossible to fight perception. The weight of my comments should not hold as much weight as say any elected official that chooses to post. What do you think of that? When the Mayor posts, he is putting the weight of his political future on the line every time.

Shouldn't that be a little heavier?

I understand what you are saying, I am just saying in my mind it is foolish to think that way.

The Observation Deck's future has been secured for years and years. With me or without me. This project which has become very self sufficient because of the support from the community. As the person that can be sued and has accepted full legal responsibility let me say again. The is no king or queen. No special seat. We are all equal. It is the only way this project works.

We have never changed a single post here with an exception of two mistakes. Three posts were moved for legal reasons, but they still are on the board. This table is inclusive, it is Lakewood's board not mine.



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Mark:

The poster is, to some extent, more than slightly pregnant with the polarities and issues amplified in the civic dialogue that builds the Lakewood brand through the post and thread.

Expect Jim to move the way he moves. Nothing personal, because it's completely personal.

The poster raises an issue because he/she feels the need to do so, to see if other neighbors will converge or diverge around the feeling that something is up or down and all around the Wood.

Is it me? Or does the issue have traction in the Wood?

How snooty, wealthy, elitist is Lakewood? That will depend on your vantage point, of course.

There is clearly the renter/owner pecking order.

I can be a snob in that I prefer smart to stupid, good New York style pizza to bad hillbilly pizza. Yet I wore my Lakewood Observer Tee Shirt with pride to Marcs yesterday to buy some “Organics" juice on sale.

There are hierarchies based on power, prestige, resources, status consciousness in any system. With capitalism there is a pecking order – roughly speaking, owners, managers, workers, and underclass.

The lower you go on the pecking order, the more likely you will feel “somethingâ€Â￾ in the system is doing "something" to screw you.

Does Lakewood belong to the pecking order of capitalism? Of course it does.

Is there a class pecking order that spans underclass Cleveland neighborhoods, to Lakewood, to Rocky River, to Westlake, to Bay Village?

I would say so.

Is the Lakewood Observer a platform for those who feel something in the regional system of the pecking order is putting the screws to the Wood?

I would say so again.

The city that would know itself must consider the feelings spawned from the pecking order of capitalism and consumption.

Consumption also allows each of us to act out divisions of class through the exercise of choice and taste in the market.

Perhaps these women were traveling from a Cleveland neighborhood lower on the pecking order with more underclass than Lakewood. Perhaps Lakewood’s middle class was shopping at the time.

From anecdotal conversations it is my sense that Tops is the lowest on the pecking order of food stores in Lakewood. Perhaps these women were new to Giant Eagle, one peck up on the order. Of course, Lakewood’s upper middle class shops at Heinen’s and wishes a more upscale supermarket could set up shop in the Wood.

Lakewood is a space of human nature, with a base line like any other.

Dr. Geoffrey Miller brings the science of human nature to the world of consumerism, and vice-versa. His class explores these avenues:

"the evolutionary origins of human preferences, tastes, and motivations

romantic gift-giving, biological signalling theory, and conspicuous consumption

theories of fads, fashions, information cascades, and social networks

the psychology of product recognition, branding, and advertising

the design of news, entertainment, and education as products

spatial cognition, landscape preferences, and the design of houses, shops, resort hotels, and theme parks

the social psychology of service industries and corporate public relations

intuitive cost/benefit/risk perception and the design of financial products (equities, bonds, insurance, loans, derivatives, portfolios)

Darwinian aesthetics of product design

Ways that the features of products and markets can be scientifically informative about human nature; ways to apply the new psychology in market research and product development"

Source: http://www.hbes.com/HBES/gmiller-syllabus.htm

All of the above lean into the conversation.

Kenneth Warren

OK - I am confused. You are not supposed to take things personally, but you are too take personal ownership. I don't see how you separate the two.

And I am amazed at the arrogance of Jim O'Brian. He continually responds in a vehement manner throwing his opinions around and discounting others, but he wants opinions and values others posts and opinions. Dude - I don't know you, but I know your type. The loudest shouter in the room gets his point across no matter how valid the point. You are no better then the Bush Administration that ignores logic and repeats the same talking points with a louder voice.

I am not really into personal attacks, but this is a continual thread throughtout this board.

One Voice - One Thought - One Mind.

David Scott wrote:And I am amazed at the arrogance of Jim O'Brian.

One Voice - One Thought - One Mind.

David


Please, It is Jim O'Bryan.

I am a little confused over the Bush Administration comment though. I went back through the threads and rarely am I the last word. Shouting down seems a tad harsh as well. But you are truly entitled to your opinion.

Maybe I am the snob in town.




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to get back on track, I'd say there's definitely a LOT less snobbery over here than when I was on the east side. Especially my brief stint living in Cleveland Heights. Now over THERE snobbery was elevated to a high art!

Though I do occasionally get whiffs of it over here when people talk about "River" or "Bay."

I just tell 'em I live in "Wood" and move on with my life.