The Observation Deck

That was very informative. The grads can at least provide the talent and some clerical work. there are plenty of retired business people in westlake to do the managerial stuff.

At the very least, they can create a new way to run such a venue.

Crocker Park will probably go through a string of near-bankruptcies followed by tax abatements and bail outs, changes in ownership distributions, etc. Then the rents will come down. Then they'll build another Crocker Park by Huntington Beach. Repeat Endlessly.

First, Mr. O is right.

RUMORS! What shred of evidence is there that the Beck board is considering a move? Money isn't everything (excpet when it is0

But then....

What is the difference between Lakewoodies calling Westlake/Crocker Park a "faux city" or "automobile ghetto" and Westlakers characterizing Lakewood as a crime-ridden suburb with war-zone schools one do-rag from being just another rotten Cleveland hood?

Both teams know the playbook. Snobbery, arrogance, hubris, misconceptions.

Everything but reality.

"automobile ghetto" is fairly objective: Crocker Park is largely only accessible via automobile. A ghetto is a place that is isolated from adjacent or surrounding areas by some kind of barriers, whether they be ethnic preferences, socio-economic moors, actual walls, or the distance and obstacle of big roads.

Crocker Park is Westlake/Rocky River ghetto-izing itself to keep the youngdoo-raggers of lakewood from creeping in!

Joan

I call it a faux city as we have an interview with Stark where he refers to it as a "city without a soul." The interview was conducted by Frank Mills an urban planner. During the interview he mentions never wanting to do that again. From now on city centers should be in real city centers.

Of course you are right on with the labeling, but it is looking ugly for the mixed use area that seems to barely hang on to only one group of users as offices and residents have seemed to stay away.

I would like to see Crocker make it. Nice having a two bookstores ten minutes away.

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Ryan....

From my apt to the Beck Center is just about a five mile round trip. How many Birdtown kids can walk...or are inclined to take three separate buses? Do you have kids? How would you feel about your 10 year old biking the length of Madison or Detroit?

Let's be serious. The journey for many of us involves a car, just as it would in Westlake.

As for Westlake/Crocker Park insulating itself from Lakewood, can't tell you how many folks I run into from this neck of the woods out there. If they're putting up walls, they're pretty porous.

"Ghettos" BTW were where Hitler forced the Jews in Polish cities to relocate. They couldn't leave and got shot if they tried. Be careful tossing that term around.

Mr. O....

How many units have been occupied at Crocker Park vs. sold at Rockport Square?

I WANT Lakewood to thrive. Who called the Reverend out when First UCC sold out for the mammon of the outer burbs? But realizing our opportunities only can come from a realistic assessment of our place in the universe. Lakewood has its positives, but other communites do, too.
Let's look at 'em all in the cold, clear ligiht of day.

Joan Roberts wrote:Mr. O....

How many units have been occupied at Crocker Park vs. sold at Rockport Square?

I WANT Lakewood to thrive. Who called the Reverend out when First UCC sold out for the mammon of the outer burbs? But realizing our opportunities only can come from a realistic assessment of our place in the universe. Lakewood has its positives, but other communites do, too.
Let's look at 'em all in the cold, clear ligiht of day.

Joan

Thanks for adding the .... after the O. I feel more complete.

Could we wait until Rockport is 1/4 built? I believe that the number is 4 units out of 12. No grass, and still building. But the point is well taken.

I have never said Bay, Westlake, Rocky River do not have positives. I just am not sold on me liking "Crocker Park" yet. but I certainly do not loathe it.

Just wondering if you are on Bay and Westlake boards correcting them on their misconceptions of Lakewood?





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when I was 10 I regularly biked from Sloan to Cleveland.

What lakewood really needs is a Casino. Perhaps we can park an obsolete smaller-sized cargo ship in front of Lakewood Park and build a permanent bridge to it. There can be many gambling ameneties and several buffets.

Yah, as a kid I used to bike all over my hometown of Westlake into Rocky River, Bay, Fairview Park and yea and verily into Lakewood when Wings Hobby was a favorite destination. That said, I am now a paranoid father of two girls so god only knows if I will ever let them leave the block. But in all seriousness, as they get older I really need to work with them on urban safety. If they can't cross city streets, we are really living in the wrong part of the world. We need to better teach them and hope that drivers follow traffic laws. Otherwise I will be spending a lot of time driving my kids to things that, when I was that age, I would have driven or walked on my own. I know my generation of parent is far more protective than the last one (at least in my opinion) but it doesn't mean I have to give in to it (as so far I am...grrr...).

The shops of Lakewood, the theater of Lakewood, and most eateries in Lakewood are far more accessible on foot or bike than Crocker Park is (unless you live in it or in the senior center across from it or on Detroit nearby) to the brunt of Westlake citizens. The telegraphed aim of Crocker Park was to be a "town center" that to be fair, westlake truly lacks (since Baluks disappeared, that is... ). But it isn't central to anything but itself. I am with Jim...I don't hate it, but I certainly haven't found much beyond the book stores to take me there. I just feel bad that they are trying to create a fake version of what exists in Lakewood, Cleveland, and other inner ring suburbs....and consequently, taking the steam out of efforts to invigorate those areas. It is hard feelings, truly.

And now they MAY want to steal yet another thing that makes Lakewood (and again, much of Cleveland and its inner ring suburbs) unique. Most of the quality theater in this area resides in the inner ring suburbs or in Cleveland itself. Beck, Great Lakes (once a Lakewood resident, sadly moved on), Cleveland Public, Cleveland Playhouse, Dobama, Karamu, Playhouse Square, Convergence-Continuum, and so on are all urban experiences that the suburbs haven't been able to emulate (though oddly enough their audiences hail from the very places they are unable to get footing). I can see Crocker wanting a piece of that but I am with Ryan, let them do it themselves and see what they come up with.

Phil

Just wondering if you are on Bay and Westlake boards correcting them on their misconceptions of Lakewood

Do they have boards? Can we set up a truth squad? Please provide the links for Rocky River, Bay and Westlake.

Jeff

Jeff Endress wrote:

Just wondering if you are on Bay and Westlake boards correcting them on their misconceptions of Lakewood

Do they have boards? Can we set up a truth squad? Please provide the links for Rocky River, Bay and Westlake.

Jeff

I know Bay and Westlake are launching one soon.


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The Beck Center is a landmark. I think that they may want to move along with this transition within and start using the Armory behind them as the profit center that it could be. From what I understand the space is not available to be rented out for the time being. That would seem to be a source of income that they are not willing to accept at this time. Sure, theaters can survive show to show but that building seems to be in good shape for what it's used for and the armory is great. It's just a shame they aren't willing to show it off and let it be used to get themselves out of debt. I had my wedding there last year and it was fantastic. Where else in Lakewood can you park that many cars and not be outside of a grocery store?

Phil, I couldn't have said it better myself. Well, if I tried really hard, maybe I could. But you guys are absolutely right, and it didn't even dawn on me: Crocker was built to look like the thriving marketplace atmosphere of inner-ring suburbs. Bastards! But your right too about the bookstores. Well, bookstore. B&N almost -- dare I say it -- censors their selection. No matter. I'm not THAT new to Lakewood, but is it me, or do we not have a bookstore? If we open a bookstore, will we be accused of ripping off outer-ring burbs, like North Olmstead, Strongsville, and Westlake/Bay/Rocky River? We can never win.

Dick

If my memory serves me right, there is a large Borders bookstore on the K-Mart side of the street near Crocker Park. And another one near Avon.

I'm not sure what the appeal of such large bookstores is. Back in '84 the westlake K-Mart had a pretty cool food counter in part of the store. Barnes and Noble kind of reminds me of that.

Downtown Cleveland has a few places that serve similar roles. The few times I was at the Galleria or Colonial Arcade or Marketplace the lobbies reminded me of a Barnes and Noble. Unlike the Tower City, there were no thugs and boneheads loitering about. Until I got there.

ryan costa wrote:Back in '84 the westlake K-Mart had a pretty cool food counter in part of the store. Barnes and Noble kind of reminds me of that.

Oh, heck. I've had a decent day. I'm in a pretty good mood. I'll take the bait.

HOW does a K-mart food counter selling hot dogs, popcorn, and soft prezels remind you of a Barnes & Noble?

It was much bigger then. There were probably lots of magazine racks nearby.