RTA What the #@#$!

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Joseph Milan
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Post by Joseph Milan »

Jim,

You seem to think that having a representative to county government that would be directly accountable to the people of Lakewood is somehow a "cancer". Should we also get rid of the city council ward seats and have them all run at large? Should we have the people downstate elect our representative to congress?

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Post by Jim O'Bryan »

Joe

You hit on an interesting point. There has been some talk in this city that all council people run at-large.


Jim
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Joseph Milan
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Post by Joseph Milan »

Jim, wouldn't this idea make council less accountable to the people in any particular ward? One could only show up, for instance, in area 1 only during parades and reelection season. I know you have already stated that this is a great way to run county government; having more accountable representation would in you view, ruin the system. What exactly is it about a representative government that you fear? Are you willing to let the people in another part of the state decide who represents us in state or national congress as well?

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Post by Jim O'Bryan »

Or would it make them more accountable to everyone in the city, while training Lakewood's mayors of the future?

My fears are many, starting with people with no knowledge planning my neighborhood, because putting it in Lakewood suits their home in Beachwood, Cleveland Heights, Bay Village etc. I can see this happening in a heartbeat. The smaller the "commission" the worse it would be. However the larger the committee the more ineffectual they would be.

A perfect example is our Stephen Calhoon. Brought on as an outside adviser, he saw nothing special about Lakewood. NOW, after drinking the koolaid, he can't stop talking about Lakewood and wants to move here. Because it is so unique, and he has found people that are energized and have a plan for the future of a city.

Joe, I realize that you do not see the mail I get, or go to the meetings I go to, but it is amazing. Urban planner after urban planner comes in with their thoughts and ideas, and walk out in disbelief. More than once I have heard, "This is incredible, it is a plan for the future, a plan that could save many, not all first ring suburbs and other cities." Frank Mills, Urban educator, came in from Rocky River, sat in some meetings, and is now looking to buy and renovate in Birdtown.

People that are not here, have not seen or heard the ideas, have not experienced the people will NEVER understand what Lakewood has going on. That is when it becomes gutted and destroyed by the single biggest enemy of Lakewood, The Regionalists who are set in an outdated desperate plan than borders on insanity.

This is when Lakewood's most valuable space along the Lake gets turned into regional dumps and county jails. Lakewood's award winning library and school system is gutted to help fix Beechwood, East Cleveland, wherever. Regionalism allows people with no ideas or vision to raid cities in an effort to make their city better, always at the expense of others. This is just weak thinking, nothing new, nothing out of the box. yawn.



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Jim O'Bryan
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"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
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If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
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dl meckes
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Post by dl meckes »

Jim O'Bryan wrote:Or would it make them more accountable to everyone in the city, while training Lakewood's mayors of the future?

Losing ward accountability to become accountable to the whole city is somehow preferable to losing city accountability to become accountable to the whole region?

I must be missing something.
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Post by Joseph Milan »

Jim O'Bryan wrote:My fears are many, starting with people with no knowledge planning my neighborhood, because putting it in Lakewood suits their home in Beachwood, Cleveland Heights, Bay Village etc. I can see this happening in a heartbeat. The smaller the "commission" the worse it would be. However the larger the committee the more ineffectual they would be.




If, as you say, the 'smaller the commission the worse it would be'; then you are in favor of the current way of doing business: 3 commissioners who might not have Lakewood's best interest at heart. (Isn't this the exact reason you say regionalism is bad?)
You also seem to believe, now, that having all council seats be at-large is a good idea. I take it you'd be comfortable will all council reps being from the 4th ward, for example ?
You still continue to avoid answering my question regarding our US congressman. Are you willing to let him run at large and be voted on by people outside the 10th district?

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Post by Jim O'Bryan »

Joe/DL


In my small mind, city government is much like quantum physics, it has rules that do not apply outside of the small world of the atom. City government transcends party lines for the most part, and has a rare accountability that seems to fall away very quickly by the time it gets to the county level. I would seem that at the county level party concepts and ass covering starts to take hold. Accountability starts to slide out the window. Would this happen regionally? I believe so, and have never seen any proof otherwise.

3 Commissioners versus many... Joe as you cherry pick the little things you miss the big picture. Most regionalist dream big but think small, another problem. Certainly we have a greater degree of people not getting it if only 3 sit on a board, but as boards grow so does the paralysis. Again, I can only go back to my experiences. At a Fortune 500 company I worked at I often was called in to do graphic projects for "committees" and I can say that rarely if ever anything good came from it. As the lunch bill grew, and the time bank of many were emptied, a freeze started to surround the projects. Becoming much like congress, worthless in the real life world. Blame would be passed, special interests would be called, needed, and the whole thing just got in the way of itself. A magazine that started with the date of June, would finally be published in August, after the committee met 4 times to discuss the date on the front of the publication. Again this is my experience, maybe you know of a committee that overcame this.

So in the regional world we have to decide small and effective at something, but unable to meet the needs or visions of everyone. Or larger slow, with the inability to meets the needs of everyone. also much more costly in $$$ and time bank waste.

Joe
You also seem to believe, now, that having all council seats be at-large is a good idea. I take it you'd be comfortable will all council reps being from the 4th ward, for example ?
You still continue to avoid answering my question regarding our US congressman. Are you willing to let him run at large and be voted on by people outside the 10th district?


and

DL
Losing ward accountability to become accountable to the whole city is somehow preferable to losing city accountability to become accountable to the whole region?

I must be missing something.


Joe I know you are not so blind as to call anyone out on this board for avoiding answers to questions! I would believe you might hold the record. But I have no need to skip anything, so let's continue.

I mentioned that at one time the thought of All-At-Large was floated, and speaking to friend last night he also remembered the talks.

Am I for it? Tough one, I see merit in both. In my ward we had a very good council person step down and one was assigned. All I can think is that the stress of the job was more than he imagined. Talk in the wood was that after three days of calls of people bitching about everything from neighbors and dogs to air quality and rain, he decided it was as fun as predicted. Phone calls were not returned and the council person became MIA. Mike Dever, Ed Fitzgerald both picked up some of the slack, and seemed to take a greater interest in the ward we are talking about. Ryan Patrick Demro jumped wards occasionally helping residents out of his ward but in his city. So in this rare example it would seem better.

HOWEVER

To answer DL and JOE all we need to do is put down the civic books and pick up the math book, maybe the science book and certainly the geography book.

All at Large vs Regional, County, State Representation and Federal Representation.

2 x 2.75 = At Large COULD work

14 x 14 = Nearly impossible to serve on a "city" level.

4, 5, or 6 council people working a city of 5.5 square miles is easy to imagine. It is also just as easy to think that this small group could travel, live, and speak with the relatively small group of people and businesses they represent. I find the city of Lakewood easy to reach out an touch people.

However it becomes impossible to serve on the level(quantum physics) when you make the area 100 square miles or more. At that point citizens and business give up input and are no longer served as needed.

This would also be like classroom sizes and entertainment.

Joe, you seem to know your subject, but have only presented one answer that's a plus, while missing many of the important and more serious questions raised by Dan Slife and Ken Warren. I have learned not to wait for answers for questions that people run from. After all we knew those answers when the tough questions were asked.

So let's recap Regionalism will deliver a smaller more effective marketing group, maybe.

As this thread is about the RTA I would like to drag it back into the discussion about RTA, regionalism, serving people and being more effective. Last night the REGIONAL Transit Authority announced fare raises, and cutback in routes and service in an effort to stay afloat and be effective.

Regionalism, where less is always described as more.


FWIW



.
Jim O'Bryan
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"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg

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If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
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Joseph Milan
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Post by Joseph Milan »

First of all, you worked for a fortune 500 company? The economies of scale alone must have driven you nuts!

You also seem to believe that at the county level the party seems to cover its ass more than anything. Perhaps you're in the wrong party to begin with. Furthermore, regardless of which party you're in, it couldn't under the parameters I've set out do what you claim it does now. Seats would be competitive ; the people in those seats would be more accountable to the people they represent or face the chance of losing their seat to someone else. If ass covering is your biggest complaint about county government, why would you not want it to change?

If you actually feel that the current 3 seat commission or our city council is too big, to you propose replacing them with some form of Monarchy?

It is interesting that you singled out Mr Demro as the person who "would jump wards"; helping out the city where other council members (even the at-large seats you want to replace everyone with) have fallen down on the job. If he does a better job in the city, how could he or someone like him not do the same at the county? Right now that can't occur because we never see our county representatives. They are not accountable as it is is now.

You're looking at this thing, by the way completely backwards. We're not talking about putting into place some monolithic fortune 500 style of government , were talking about breaking up that government and replacing it with smaller government. An interesting part of the proposal is that these commissioners would be part time instead of full time and still be able to get the voters concerns heard, something you think is missing at city hall. Yes, there would be more representatives, but they would once again be more accountable to the people they represent. You wouldn't see them only on parade day.

You can continue to consider this "regionalism ", but in reality it's making the county less of a regional government and more of a local government. , with representatives more in tune with what best for lakewood or the areas they serve rather than sitting behind some chair at the county doing nothing.

In regards to your arithmetic, do you propose that all cities be exactly the same shape and size otherwise they are useless?

In regards to your comments about RTA , there problems are more a factor of people moving out of the region than being a huge corporation. Have you not looked at the county census numbers lately? As I said at the start of this conversation; until we learn to work together as a region we're not going to see this number increase. Think of it as cooperation.

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Post by Jim O'Bryan »

Joe

Work with me on this one, excuse my brevity as the paper is on deadline.

JM - First of all, you worked for a fortune 500 company? The economies of scale alone must have driven you nuts!

JO - Sometimes. I watched the 3rd largest corporation in the world fall to 10th while I was there. Eventually then ended up 30th. Of course it was easy to understand. Oil is such a hard business to male a profit in!!!!

I watched as committee after committee collectively missed the point, or came up short as they tried to cover their ass while trying to expose the bum of their neighbor to the wolves. I watched as the wrong people read the reports wrong, they proceeded to cut back in the wrong areas and lay off the wrong people. their actions were supported with numbers and little else, certainly not common sense. In the end the secretary of human resources ended up with a job controlling tankers, and even she admitted it was waaaaay over her head, but the perks were cool. she went to Alaska every month to see the tankers she was controlling!!

JM - You also seem to believe that at the county level the party seems to cover its ass more than anything. Perhaps you're in the wrong party to begin with. Furthermore, regardless of which party you're in, it couldn't under the parameters I've set out do what you claim it does now. Seats would be competitive ; the people in those seats would be more accountable to the people they represent or face the chance of losing their seat to someone else. If ass covering is your biggest complaint about county government, why would you not want it to change?

JO - Change can be good, but some changes have to be looked at very carefully. Let's turn to Iraq, We were promised one thing, what happened was exactly what most said, and that was very, very different than the promise. Now we are stuck and can't go back. I see regionalism the same, once city government is dismantled it will take some real hard work to bring it back.

JM - If you actually feel that the current 3 seat commission or our city council is too big, to you propose replacing them with some form of Monarchy?

JO - where did I say council was too big? Again city government has to be seen and understoof like quantum physics, many laws are reversed or do not hold up in the tiny world of the atom/city. More council people would be better until they met, then I am afraid the discussion might be unmanageable.

JM - It is interesting that you singled out Mr Demro as the person who "would jump wards"; helping out the city where other council members (even the at-large seats you want to replace everyone with) have fallen down on the job. If he does a better job in the city, how could he or someone like him not do the same at the county? Right now that can't occur because we never see our county representatives. They are not accountable as it is is now.

JO - First, Dever and Fitzgerald did do their jobs and picked up slack. Demro was cited because I know of no others that so eagerly jumped wards to help. You have to admit that RPD is a rare one. A Republican that thinks like and old Democrat.

JM - You're looking at this thing, by the way completely backwards. We're not talking about putting into place some monolithic fortune 500 style of government , were talking about breaking up that government and replacing it with smaller government.

JO - Joe, Joe, Joe who is backwards? We are not talking about forming Lakewood North and South. we are talking about having a larger region. Even if we take your perverse math and combine 4,000 jobs and cut back to 500. We have a smaller paid government, but we loose representation and taxation at the local level, because of the scope and logistics of the size of the area.

JM - An interesting part of the proposal is that these commissioners would be part time instead of full time and still be able to get the voters concerns heard, something you think is missing at city hall. Yes, there would be more representatives, but they would once again be more accountable to the people they represent. You wouldn't see them only on parade day.

JO - First you seem overly concerned about who is in the parade on this thing you call parade day. This is the second or third time you have brought up this new holiday. So we take full time employees at the county level and make them part time. Meaning they then carry a second job. This equals more access? Common sense would let us know that less time in the office and more at a second job would make them more accessible to us how? We could stop by McDonald's third shift and speak with them at the drive up window?

JM - You can continue to consider this "regionalism ", but in reality it's making the county less of a regional government and more of a local government. , with representatives more in tune with what best for lakewood or the areas they serve rather than sitting behind some chair at the county doing nothing.

JO - Joe, Do I smell "Clean Air," Did I get a nasty taste of "Fresh Water"? This is right out of the Republican play book but only a blind Republican would really say it in public. We cut local government, make them part time, downsize, combine, shuffle, and now that you have played your hand, cut taxes, but we end up with more. Did you use to manage at BP?

JM - In regards to your arithmetic, do you propose that all cities be exactly the same shape and size otherwise they are useless?

JO - Nope, never said or indicated it. Was hoping you would do the second equation. 5.5 divided by 8 as opposed to 144 divided by 3. Which provides a more realistic number for getting a chance to actually see a representative.

JM - In regards to your comments about RTA , there problems are more a factor of people moving out of the region than being a huge corporation. Have you not looked at the county census numbers lately? As I said at the start of this conversation; until we learn to work together as a region we're not going to see this number increase. Think of it as cooperation.

JO - Thanks for once again making the point against Regionalism. It's not RTA's fault they are failing. It is not their practices, business plans, or employees, it is the PEOPLE that RTA serves, that have let the company down. If only the people would have stayed or been forced to use the smelly, loud, dirty, sticky, ill timed, 4 in a row buses, everything would have been rosy.

RTA's problem is that it is a REGIONAL office of humans. Humans have human traits. They hire friends, protect asses, and generally try to do as little as possible. The larger the area, the more uncountable. Simple put RTA's business plan is driving them out of business, not the riders.

So to recap, we make the area larger, reduce staff, and stand up on the top of a very slippery slope on a vary large hill. As this smaller group covers their asses while hiring friends not qualified, we start the one way trip down the hill to NOWHERE.

Again, single benefit presented, not as many flunkys getting paid in the "marketing department." Does Lakewood have a marketing department? I hope not.

Joe, please notice I did not cherry pick your words. I commented on every word you put to the board. Now why don't you go back and show Ken Warren and Dan Slife the same courtesy?

I think there might be some over whelming reason you are for Regionalism and just haven't expressed it yet, or correctly, so I look forward to this conversation continuing.


.
Jim O'Bryan
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"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg

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If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
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Joseph Milan
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Post by Joseph Milan »

JO-Sometimes. I watched the 3rd largest corporation in the world fall to 10th while I was there. Eventually then ended up 30th.

JM- your company (if it's the one I think it is) didn't "fall"; new business with new products and new ideas simply passed you up. And the businesses that passed you up became even bigger than yours. Are you saying they are all doomed because of their size?

JO-Change can be good, but some changes have to be looked at very carefully. Let's turn to Iraq, We were promised one thing, what happened was exactly what most said, and that was very, very different than the promise. Now we are stuck and can't go back.

JM- Interesting you'd change the topic to Iraq on the very day they are voting on a new constitution; one that does not have a dictator at the helm. Let's discuss Iraq elsewhere.

JO - where did I say council was too big?

JM- You did not say council was too big; you said made the analogy of county government to a fortune 500 company and implied it was a bad thing. I'm simply asking, if county government is bad as it is with 3 representatives, how can you say Lakewood, much smaller than the county is better with more than 3 representatives?

JO- Joe, Joe, Joe who is backwards? We are not talking about forming Lakewood North and South. we are talking about having a larger region.

JM- no, were not. The size of Lakewood would still be the same the size of the county would still be the same. The difference is that, instead of having 3 commissioners, accountable to no one, we would have a commissioner who actually lives in our area and is accountable.

JO- Common sense would let us know that less time in the office and more at a second job would make them more accessible to us how?

JM- First of all, as I continue to explain, they wouldn't be responsible for the entire county. Are you implying that our city council members, all of whom are part time with other jobs is a bad thing? Are you willing to pay them full time salaries? You've already said that most of them don't get back to you as it is and you want them to be rewarded for this?

JO - We cut local government, make them part time, downsize, combine, shuffle,
JM - This would in no way effect local government; Lakewood's council would remain as is. So to would every city in the county. Where have I ever referred to doing away with any city council?

JO - Which provides a more realistic number for getting a chance to actually see a representative.

JM - then here's some math for you: take the population of the county and divide it by 3 (the number of commissioners now); then take the population of the the county and divide it by 12 or 15 (the approx. number of representatives under the reform plan). Which provides a more realistic number for getting to actually see a representative?

JO-If only the people would have stayed or been forced to use the smelly, loud, dirty, sticky, ill timed, 4 in a row buses, everything would have been rosy.

JM- so in you're world the reason that our county is losing population is directly related to RTA; even though it's a small percentage of population who use it and they aren't the ones leaving. Personally, if it is true that a person is putting up for sale sign because of RTA, then 5 people are putting up for sale signs because of the one sided way the county is being run now.

JO -RTA's problem is that it is a REGIONAL office of humans. Humans have human traits. They hire friends, protect asses, and generally try to do as little as possible.

JM - well then, you must want to get rid of all these evil humans and let the robots take over. Are you also saying that this hiring of friend and relatives doesn't happen already in the the city or the county?

JO - Simple put RTA's business plan is driving them out of business, not the riders.

JM- no, Neither RTA's business plans nor its riders (whose number are growing) is causing the downfall of RTA. RTA gets most of its revenue not from fairs but from government funds, based largely on the revenue made from county. It's the county as it is run now, more than anything else, that is causing RTA to raise fairs.

By the way, to answer your question, Lakewood does have a Chamber of Commerce. You, on the other hand, are suggesting that groups such as COSE and other regional organizations should not work with Lakewood.

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Post by Jim O'Bryan »

JM- your company (if it's the one I think it is) didn't "fall"; new business with new products and new ideas simply passed you up. And the businesses that passed you up became even bigger than yours. Are you saying they are all doomed because of their size?

JO - They were doomed because they thought the way to get ahead was to cut cost of doing business. I always said "It was like they went to a Japanese Management Seminar and left at lunch to go golfing." They heard about cost cutting and efficiency but missed, moral, quality control(on all levels), and keep people that were not aware of what their business was. This company is just one reason I question the sanity of City Managers. City Managers seem to make sense, but I have seen a bunch of really bad managers they someone must of thought were good.

JM- Interesting you'd change the topic to Iraq on the very day they are voting on a new constitution; one that does not have a dictator at the helm. Let's discuss Iraq elsewhere.

JO you want to start the thread or should I?

JO - where did I say council was too big?

JM- You did not say council was too big; you said made the analogy of county government to a fortune 500 company and implied it was a bad thing. I'm simply asking, if county government is bad as it is with 3 representatives, how can you say Lakewood, much smaller than the county is better with more than 3 representatives?

JO - What can be applied on a county level does not work on a city level. I suppose the reverse it true.

JM- no, were not. The size of Lakewood would still be the same the size of the county would still be the same. The difference is that, instead of having 3 commissioners, accountable to no one, we would have a commissioner who actually lives in our area and is accountable.

JO - How can you promise he would live in our area, and what is your definition of our area?

JM- First of all, as I continue to explain, they wouldn't be responsible for the entire county. Are you implying that our city council members, all of whom are part time with other jobs is a bad thing? Are you willing to pay them full time salaries? You've already said that most of them don't get back to you as it is and you want them to be rewarded for this?

JO-First ALL FOLLOWING COMMENTS ARE NOT A REFLECTION ON CURRENT OFFICIALS.
I would be willing to up the price paid to the Mayor and Council in a heartbeat. Another thing I question with the topic of City Manager, is instead of paying a mayor $75,000 and a city manager $150,000, why not just pay the mayor $125,000? It would seem that many more candidates would throw their hats into the ring. It only makes sense that the better the pay the larger the pool of candidates.

JM - This would in no way effect local government; Lakewood's council would remain as is. So to would every city in the county.

JO - Where have I ever referred to doing away with any city council?

Joe I was referring to the new regional government not the city government that would in fact have little say in anything that matters outside of who cuts the ribbon at the new prison on the lake.

JM - then here's some math for you: take the population of the county and divide it by 3 (the number of commissioners now); then take the population of the the county and divide it by 12 or 15 (the approx. number of representatives under the reform plan). Which provides a more realistic number for getting to actually see a representative?

JO - Obviously 12 or 15. So the next question is where do they live, what are their favorite siblings(cities) and how are we represented both in humans, voting, and final outcome of OUR library, police and fire, water...

JM- so in you're world the reason that our county is losing population is directly related to RTA; even though it's a small percentage of population who use it and they aren't the ones leaving. Personally, if it is true that a person is putting up for sale sign because of RTA, then 5 people are putting up for sale signs because of the one sided way the county is being run now.

JO - No Joe, I am saying that RTA is losing money as the need for RTA climbs because they are a large regional company that is filled with inept workers(not all). That together because of their size and nature)regional) they cannot move or think fast enough to survive. One of many things I fear with regionalism. The "managers" either do not realize their new buses are falling apart, or not willing to admit it. That the "new routes" have not done a thing, and maybe someone would walk out of their big chair and understand, that 3 buses in a row make no sense. That running around in a small bus as if it was a cab is nuts. And that worrying about one, usually alienates hundreds.

JM - well then, you must want to get rid of all these evil humans and let the robots take over. Are you also saying that this hiring of friend and relatives doesn't happen already in the the city or the county?

JO - Yeah Joe, let's hire(?) the robots. Er, where are the robots? I never said that hiring of friends isn't a problem in politics. We have to look no farther than the White House, and the selling of our country. It will be the biggest reason GWB ran our country into the third world. But let's save that for another thread( You want to start it or me?)

JM- no, Neither RTA's business plans nor its riders (whose number are growing) is causing the downfall of RTA. RTA gets most of its revenue not from fairs but from government funds, based largely on the revenue made from county. It's the county as it is run now, more than anything else, that is causing RTA to raise fairs.

JO - I'm dying, ridership is up, by miles traveled are also up. This means costs are up, this means that the bus company wasn't run as efficiently as it once was. It means that people that enlarge and combined routes when for the easy answer, which is almost always wrong and should not be confused with reactions. If rider ship is up, but it takes three times as many miles and buses to record that very small growth, it is a loser. The business plan and management, including board should be run.

JM - By the way, to answer your question, Lakewood does have a Chamber of Commerce. You, on the other hand, are suggesting that groups such as COSE and other regional organizations should not work with Lakewood.

JO - Is the Chamber a government run office? In your plan it was. Show me where I said no to COSE which is very overrated anyway. I am not saying no or have I ever indicated that cities shouldn't work together. I just question the sanity of making a whole bureaucracy of strangers in charge of the system.

JO - Missed your responses to my fellow observers.
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident

"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg

"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Joseph Milan
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 12:45 pm

Post by Joseph Milan »

JO- They were doomed because they thought the way to get ahead was to cut cost of doing business. I always said "It was like they went to a Japanese Management Seminar and left at lunch to go golfing."

JM- Jim, I've seen a lot of businesses go under over the years; with exception of a few it's never fully management or fully workers who are to blame. It's usually the two combined. One only has to look at several Labor unions right now, including a major airline's workers, while the company, not being able to pay its fuel bills is filing for bankruptcy. Sure, there are the cases like Enron, but they are the exception, not the rule.

JO- What can be applied on a county level does not work on a city level. I suppose the reverse it true.

JM- Agreed.

JO - How can you promise he would live in our area, and what is your definition of our area?

JM- This is how it was drawn up in petitions that circulated earlier in the year. The representative would have to live in the area. This is true as it is now with city government: the Ward's representative has to live in the Ward. The Mayor has to live in the city. As the petition didn't gather much headway in an ironically liberal area that doesn't want to change, the areas were never defined. All I can tell you is that we'd be in an area that includes the surronding comm unites, not East Cleveland like you have been mentioning.

JO-I would be willing to up the price paid to the Mayor and Council in a heartbeat.
JM- I would be to if Lakewood was big enough to need full time council members, but then to make it big enough, our area would truly have to rationalize, something that no one is too keen on. Even while I know there are benefits, I also know there are drawbacks.

JO-Joe I was referring to the new regional government not the city government that would in fact have little say in anything that matters outside of who cuts the ribbon at the new prison on the lake.

JM- There are already decision made on a county wide basis by the county officials. Most of the the time they make the decision based not what's best for the county, not what's best for Lakewood, but what's best for Cleveland. The commissioners know they only have to satisfy Cleveanders to get reelected.


JO - Obviously 12 or 15. So the next question is where do they live, what are their favorite siblings(cities) and how are we represented both in humans, voting, and final outcome of OUR library,

JM - This is a city issue; the revised county officials position would have as much say about our library as the current commissioners do, none. They would only make decisions on matters pertaining to the area they represent, not city businesses within these areas.

JO - No Joe, I am saying that RTA is losing money as the need for RTA climbs because they are a large regional company that is filled with inept workers(not all). That together because of their size ...

JM - Then lets break off from RTA and form our own transit system,, I mentioned this earlier to point out how difficult it would be and people didn't think a regional system was such a bad idea. I believe it was referred to as cooperation then.

JO - I'm dying, ridership is up, by miles traveled are also up. This means costs are up, this means that the bus company wasn't run as efficiently as it once was.
JM - No, miles traveled in general are pretty much the same; the buses for the most part still go where they used to. The only part of this I'll give you is the community circulator, that creates overlapping routes where buses have gone to for years. If mileage is up, I say get rid of these circulators and take the people where they need to go (which generally isn't in a circle.) Once again, RTA makes a very small portion of its revenue on fares. Most of their money comes in the form of government funds from tax dollars. Our county's tax base has been shrinking with population loss for years.

Joe
Kenneth Warren
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Post by Kenneth Warren »

It seems that Mr. Milan’s focus on regionalism tends toward governance issues first.

Mr. O Bryan mentions the Republican playbook.

Is the plan Mr. Milan is suggesting the one developed by the Republicans?

I notice that Mr. Milan says Enron is the exception to the rule of out of control corporate greed and then shifts his focus to labor.

People see the world differently, of course, espousing different value creation strategies which will benefit different instincts and interests.

To my way of seeing things, however, labor alone did not put people in this soup.

Let’s face facts the ratio of CEO to worker pay has increased from 301-1 to 431-1 since 1990.

What will Mr. Milan’s regionalism plan do to effect to the chasm between rich and poor widening every day?

We know that real income for working families declined 4.8% ($2576) while it increased 1.7% (that’s of a much bigger income) for the wealthy since 2000.

What will regionalism do about asset ownership, perhaps with the privatizing of public assets, a clear policy trend with Republicans and even Democrats under Clinton?

Now, with respect to asset ownership the top 5% owning 60% of all assets in the country while the bottom 40% shares 1%.

What will regionalism do about this?

Is the percentage likely to shift toward corporations further?

Are we to trust the Republicans, or Democrats for that matter, as they move into governance structures that are further away from local control and moral codes of subsidiarity?

Regionalism promises us greater “bonding capacityâ€Â￾ for the region.

America is already drowning in debt, with 5.4 million working class families below the poverty level of $19,000 for a family of four in the last four years.

How will regionalism drive us ever deeper into the debt abyss?

What’s regionalism going to do for the children in the county raised in homes where their parents can’t provide adequate tools to succeed in life? Where will they live and obtain schooling? Will regionalism insist on a re-distribution of affordable housing options beyond Cuyahoga County for parents can’t provide children with adequate tools to succeed in life?

These are the substantive matters, and yet history and experience tell us these are likely to be avoided and mystified as the PR spinners serve their elite masters.

Like all voodoo economics of the supply side kind, the people are over-promised a bill of goods.

Is the bill of goods within the regionalism panacea more supply side, Neo-liberal snake oil?

Mr. O’Bryan sees a more accountable, effective and moral alignment when the interests and instincts are within a scaled, democratically elected boundary condition.

I agree.

Mr. Milan sees it otherwise.

But the conversation is still largely focused on boundary conditions and quantity of elected officials.

Obviously that’s where the controls and access to the assets, cash and contracts are concentrated.

Listening to the regionalism conversation, it’s not a stretch of the political imagination to see in the name of efficiency and better government the lineaments of an ideological power play.

There is a left side and there is a right side within these lineaments.

The name of the market game in the land of both Neo-liberals and
Neo-conservatives is:

1) Obtain the controls of government via mystifications about savings in regionalism;
2) Target labor
3) Manage cash flow
4) Privatize assets

With water wars likely in the coming decades, Cleveland’s public water is a power house coveted by those very same powers that would have us believe Enron is the exception to the rule.

The stakes are very large, indeed.

Things are never what they seem.

By reducing the number of players on Cleveland City Council, or any municipal council for that matter, the path to privatize assets is simplified.

Is there room in Mr. Milan's regionalism proposal for a water-backed regional community currency?

Kenneth Warren
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Post by Jim O'Bryan »

Joe

As we wait for Ken to find the time to answwer maybe I can get a couple questions out of the way.

Kenneth Warren wrote:Is the percentage likely to shift toward corporations further?

A county plan? No; A true regional plan? It may help keep businesses here by creating new businesses to support current ones.
On a side note, tax abatement's should be given out by the state or region, so that a company that could succeed in City A without a 'bribe' doesn't get lured to City B where it may not do as well.

JO - This might stop Rocky River from whoring themselves out to get Lakewood Business and vice a versa. But it does nothing about the real problem in Lakewood. Jobs leaving the region period. While we watch Bay fight Fairview for the largest empty mall, it does nothing about the need for real jobs, or to keep those jobs from going one inch outside the region. Meanwhile we still have a vibrant but cash strapped city paying for East Cleveland's streets, Cleveland Heights walks, and Rocky River school kids teachers.

Kenneth Warren wrote:Are we to trust the Republicans, or Democrats for that matter, as they move into governance structures that are further away from local control and moral codes of subsidiarity?


I believe that a county governance restructuring would create a check and balance system for both parties. Now, there is one party control with no checks and balances.

JO - So it is a Democrat thing. The Republicans have screwed the country and created yet another Vietnam, Iran Contra, Operation Midnight, Watergate... Here on a more local level we have coingate and Taft just being a dismal failure. but for some reason the region government will be better, more trust worthy...

Kenneth Warren wrote:What?s regionalism going to do for the children in the county raised in homes where their parents can?t provide adequate tools to succeed in life? Where will they live and obtain schooling? Will regionalism insist on a re-distribution of affordable housing options beyond Cuyahoga County for parents can?t provide children with adequate tools to succeed in life?

If it helps create jobs, as the Cargo Airport could have, yes.
(for more on the cargo airport idea, see " Structural change in an urban indusrtial region), edited by DL McKee & RL Bennett, 1987

JO - Big IF, and what if the airport had been built, air traffic down, airlines going bankrupt. Would that be better than the homes that were built instead? How many jobs did those homes create? Lawncare, maid service, decorating, etc.

Kenneth Warren wrote:With water wars likely in the coming decades, Cleveland?s public water is a power house coveted by those very same powers that would have us believe Enron is the exception to the rule.

The stakes are very large, indeed.

Things are never what they seem.

By reducing the number of players on Cleveland City Council, or any municipal council for that matter, the path to privatize assets is simplified.

Is there room in Mr. Milan's regionalism proposal for a water-backed regional community currency?


I see no reason why Lakewood and other lakeside communities shouldn't share in water revenue that now Cleveland gets. Should Medina share this income? No, but lakeside communities should.

JO - Joe it is nice that we all agree on this. This is the one thing that saves the city/region. Though I see outside forces trying to make living near the lakes nearly impossible. Is it not strange that EVERY coty on the Great Lakes is failing with the exception of Chicago and Toronto.

Again you put forward a very sound argument, but I still think we have not hit the note that makes me go, Ahhhhhh Yessssssss.

But it is just my opinion.


.
Jim O'Bryan
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"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
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If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
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Joseph Milan
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Post by Joseph Milan »

Hey Jim,

I'm not sure if you saw the Plain Dealer's election section today (Sunday, Oct. 30th). It seems like the PD asked a lot of questions regarding regionalism, including sharing resources such as fire engines.
I still have questions to answer from your previous post .. I'll look at them after Halloween

Joe
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