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Re: Common Core and the upcoming levy

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:16 am
by Peter Grossetti
I want to once again bring up what I posted elsewhere on The Deck: http://lakewoodobserver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11755


Per Cuyahoga County Board of Elections, here is the Issue 14 wording:

An additional tax for the benefit of the Lakewood City School District for the purpose of current expenses at a rate not exceeding 3.9 mills for each one dollar of valuation, which amounts to 39 cents for each one hundred dollars of valuation, for a continuing period of time, commencing in 2013, first due in calendar year 2014.

Where, oh where, does it mention HOW (if passed) the $$$ will be spent??

We are ONLY voting to authorize or not authorize additional tax dollars!

Re: Common Core and the upcoming levy

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:40 pm
by Charlie Page
Peter Grossetti wrote:Where, oh where, does it mention HOW (if passed) the $$$ will be spent??


Peter Grossetti wrote:...for the purpose of current expenses....[/b]


You just answered your own question :)

Re: Common Core and the upcoming levy

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:22 am
by Roy Pitchford
Sean,

I was thinking about something you said about standards and curriculum.
Common Core is a set of standards, not a curriculum, but a school system may need to change is curriculum to educate its students. If Common Core dictates, in order to pass a standardized exam, a student must know "Fact X" and a school system's curriculum teaches "Fact Y" wouldn't it be in the interests of the school system to change what it teaches?

Again, I'll quote Ronald Reagan, speaking on the National Defense Act of 1958:
The truth is there is not one shred of evidence has been presented that there is a necessity for any federal aid to our traditional local and state educational program. The aim, the aim alone is federal control. They deny this in proposing the legislation, but two and a half billion dollar program now that is advocated by the largest spending lobby in Washington D.C. But what do we hear in other utterances? The director of public education of the state of Washington spoke out in protest publicly against the problem of his state. For two years, in trying to fit itself to the rigid requirements of the director, the national director of education under the present act and he said this is federal control by indirection. All the more dangerous because it pretends to be a federal handout.


It's a nudge.
It's a foot-in-the-door technique.
It's a slight shift in the Overton Window.

Re: Common Core and the upcoming levy

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:24 am
by Sean Wheeler
Roy,

I'm on lunch, so this has to be quick. In short, "that dog don't hunt". The Common Core standards are sponsored by state governors, and NOT the federal government. (Look it up on Wikipedia. Sorry, no link handy.)

The standards also don't represent much of a shift and are more focused on skills than facts.

I think this is all a manufactured, and targeted, campaign to play upon citizens fear of government takeover. This isn't the case with the common core. I also need to add that the whole focus on the common core, and the standardized tests that will go with it, is an ill-conceived attempt to deal with the tremendous shift in teaching and learning that we need to deal with in light of the digital age.

I think if you read the standards you'll find them to be pretty tame and not far from anything anyone has learned in school the last 100 years. This, of course, is my whole problem with the standards.

Re: Common Core and the upcoming levy

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:08 pm
by Roy Pitchford
Sean Wheeler wrote:Roy,

I'm on lunch, so this has to be quick. In short, "that dog don't hunt". The Common Core standards are sponsored by state governors, and NOT the federal government. (Look it up on Wikipedia. Sorry, no link handy.)

The standards also don't represent much of a shift and are more focused on skills than facts.

I think this is all a manufactured, and targeted, campaign to play upon citizens fear of government takeover. This isn't the case with the common core. I also need to add that the whole focus on the common core, and the standardized tests that will go with it, is an ill-conceived attempt to deal with the tremendous shift in teaching and learning that we need to deal with in light of the digital age.

I think if you read the standards you'll find them to be pretty tame and not far from anything anyone has learned in school the last 100 years. This, of course, is my whole problem with the standards.

Last 100 years, you say...
I've read some 100+ year books, including one written by the then Superintendent of the Topeka Kansas school district. As a quick aside, I have spent the last year digitally restoring books and making them available on Amazon.
I think I would disagree with you. We hold our kids today to significantly lower standards than we did then. I can also tell you from the books I have read that certain stories from history have been scrubbed.

Re: Common Core and the upcoming levy

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:24 pm
by Matthew Lee
Roy Pitchford wrote: We hold our kids today to significantly lower standards than we did then. I can also tell you from the books I have read that certain stories from history have been scrubbed.


OK. I'll bite.

1) What, specifically, are examples of how we hold our kids to lower standards?
2) What, specifically, are stories that have been scrubbed from history?

Thanks!

Re: Common Core and the upcoming levy

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:49 pm
by Sean Wheeler
Roy,

Have you read the Common Core Standards? If you're going to insult what I do by calling it scrubbed history and bar-lowering, I'd like you to take a look at specific common core standards in your comparison.

I'd also suggest that NOBODY 100 years ago had as much access to information and learning opportunities than any of us has now. I'd also submit that many of the skills that you'd call the higher standards of yesteryear have less to do with rigor than obsolescence, and more to do with memorization than with application.

I think I've been pretty fair and thorough in my responses, but now, regrettably, it looks like you're just trying to pick a fight. This thread started with your somehow weaving together Glenn Beck conspiracies, the common core, and the levy. I've left the Beck/Malkin conspiracy alone because it doesn't have merit. I discussed and helped to clarify what the common core is, what it does, and who made them. I also, obviously, support the levy. I guess what I'm saying is that I've said all that I find worth talking about here.

If you want to somehow debate education past versus present, go ahead. I'm going to busy myself thinking about education's future.

Re: Common Core and the upcoming levy

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:43 pm
by Roy Pitchford
Matthew Lee wrote:
Roy Pitchford wrote: We hold our kids today to significantly lower standards than we did then. I can also tell you from the books I have read that certain stories from history have been scrubbed.


OK. I'll bite.

1) What, specifically, are examples of how we hold our kids to lower standards?
2) What, specifically, are stories that have been scrubbed from history?

Thanks!

I view your request as an ongoing project, so if you don't mind, I may end up writing several responses.

Regarding lower standards:
1. Penmanship is disappearing. We no longer ask our kids to write legibly and cursive is going to disappear.
2. I listen to children speak all the time at work. They could all use diction lessons. We're allowing kids to become sloppy.
3. I've encountered teenagers (one was 18, I asked him) who are incapable of reading an analog clock. Come on, this is a 1st or 2nd grade skill.
4. Our emphasis on spelling has devolved significantly. I looked up the "McGuffey Eclectic Speller" which was used in schools throughout the mid and late 1800s.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15456/15456-pdf.pdf
(PDF version from Project Gutenberg)
Notice: There's a note from the transcriber stating "Do you remember how to spell "pharmacopoeia" or "Winnipiseogee"? This was for sixth grade!"
If phonics is taught in schools anymore, I'd imagine its rare.

Kids are taught the how or the what, but not as much the why.
Why is "bicycle" spelled the way it is? bi is the Latin for 'two' and cycle is Greek (kyklos) for 'wheel' or 'circle'.

5. Speaking of Latin and Greek, those used to be staples of education as well. Thomas Jefferson started studying both languages at age 9. James Madison mastered both before college. The story is that President James Garfield, could write Greek and Latin at the same time with both hands.

6. Finally, what will I'm sure be a controversial statement, but religion is missing from the schools in the last 100 years as well. Actually, that decision is within the last 50 years. Whether you call them "The Ten Commandments" or "The Ten Moral Tips" they are good rules to go by.


Regarding missing stories:
1. Jamestown attempted communism and failed.
A History of the United States, 1904 wrote:"All things in common" is very well in theory, but its successful practice requires ideal conditions. These were not present in the Jamestown colony. Many of the colonists were vicious idlers and jailbirds, picked up on the streets of London. To such persons, "All things in common" meant, "Put in as little as possible; get out as much as you can."

I don't recall covering that in my AP US History class.

2. The Koszta Affair of 1853.
A History of the United States, 1904 wrote:Martin Koszta had been a prominent leader, along with Louis Kossuth, in the Hungarian rebellion. When the rebellion failed, he came to the United States, and immediately took out naturalization papers, thereby taking the first steps toward becoming a citizen of the United States, and therefore entitled to its protection in any country of the world. In the year 1854 he went to Turkey and was given permission by the Turkish authorities to go ashore at Smyrna, under the passport of an American citizen. While ashore, at the instigation of the Austrian consul at Smyrna, he was seized by bandits, thrown into the bay, picked up by an Austrian boat in waiting for the purpose, and taken on board an Austrian man-of-war. The American consul at once demanded his release. This being refused, the American sloop-of-war, St. Louis, then in the bay of Smyrna, loaded her guns, ran up her flag, prepared for action, and demanded Koszta's surrender at the cannon's mouth. Hereupon the Austrian authorities agreed to turn Koszta over to the French government for safe-keeping, and to refer the final question of his release to arbitration between the two governments. This proposal was at once agreed to by the American consul. In the controversy which ensued between the government at Washington and Austria, the United States was completely triumphant, and Koszta was released. This diplomatic victory greatly strengthened national pride. It was now felt that "to be an American citizen was a greater honor than to be a king."

Contrast that with what happened September 11, 2012 in Benghazi, Libya.

3. The beating of Senator Charles Sumner.
A History of the United States, 1904 wrote:When President Pierce sent his message to congress condemning the Topeka constitution, it drew from Charles Sumner, on the 20th of May, 1856, his celebrated speech, "The Crime against Kansas." Sumner was a scholar of distinguished ability, an eloquent orator, and a master of invective. When he pointed his shaft of scorn, it went straight to the mark and stung his victim. During the course of his speech he took occasion to comment severely upon the conduct of Senator Andrew P. Butler of South Carolina, who, at the time, happened to be absent from the senate chamber. Two days later the senate had adjourned earlier than usual, and Sumner remained writing at his desk, when Representative Preston Brooks, a relative of Butler's, entered the rear of the senate chamber, accompanied by Representative Lawrence M. Keitt, — each armed with a cane. "You have libelled the state of South Carolina and my aged relative," shouted Brooks, as he rushed upon Sumner, violently striking him over the head with his cane. He struck blow after blow with his gutta percha weapon, while Keitt stood by to see that no one interfered. Sumner, although a powerful man, was so stunned by the first blow that he was unable to rise and turn upon his assailant. He soon fell bleeding and unconscious to the floor, and was carried from the chamber by friends who hastened to his assistance. His injuries were so serious that he was unable to resume his seat for three years, but during all that time the state of Massachusetts kept his seat vacant, as a silent protest against this cowardly attack upon the freedom of debate.


Its also worth noting: Many are taught that the Civil War was about "state's rights". Read the Confederate Constitution.
No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several states; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form states to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory, the institution of negro slavery as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress, and by the territorial government: and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories, shall have the right to take to such territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the states or territories of the Confederate states.



4. Our first "War on Terror"...the Barbary Wars.
A History of the United States, 1904 wrote:The Barbary states were a group of pirate states located along or near the northern coast of Africa, of which the chief were Algiers, Tunis, Tripoli, and Morocco. These states made their living by preying upon the commerce of other nations or demanding tribute money. By the treaty with Algiers in 1795, the United States agreed to pay tribute to the pirates of that country. She later entered into a similar treaty with Tunis, but in spite of this annual tribute, American commerce continued to be molested, and her officers insulted. In 1800, a few of these states made a demand upon President Adams for more tribute money. The following year, a similar demand was made upon his successor. Jefferson replied by sending a fleet of American war vessels under Commodore Dale to make a demonstration (1801) on the coast of the pirate states. A pirate cruiser was captured, and for a time American commerce had the freedom of the Mediterranean.

Two years later, however, congress declared war against Tripoli, which was concluded by a treaty of peace in 1805. In this war, Lieutenant, afterwards Commodore, Decatur first distinguished himself as a naval officer. The American fleet captured many vessels, though it suffered the loss of the frigate Philadelphia, under Captain Bainbridge, who, with all his crew, fell into the hands of the Tripolitans. By the provisions of the treaty, these prisoners were ransomed by the payment of $60,000.


Some interesting additional information that doesn't even make my 1904 text can be found on Wikipedia:
Wikipedia wrote:In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to London to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). Upon inquiring "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:

It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.


Jefferson reported the conversation to Secretary of Foreign Affairs John Jay, who submitted the Ambassador's comments and offer to Congress. Jefferson argued that paying tribute would encourage more attacks. Although John Adams agreed with Jefferson, he believed that circumstances forced the U.S. to pay tribute until an adequate navy could be built.


Wikipedia wrote:In 1795, Algeria came to an agreement with the U.S. that resulted in the release of 115 sailors they held, at the cost of over $1 million. This amount totaled about 1/6 of the entire U.S. budget, and was demanded as tribute by the Barbary States to prevent further piracy. The continuing demand for tribute ultimately led to the formation of the United States Department of the Navy, founded in 1798 in order to prevent further piracy attacks upon American shipping as well as to end the extremely large demand for tribute from the Barbary States.


I could continue, but its getting late.

If you want to somehow debate education past versus present, go ahead. I'm going to busy myself thinking about education's future.

Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. Our future depends on NOT allowing the past to be altered or forgotten.

Re: Common Core and the upcoming levy

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:30 am
by Matthew Lee
Interesting items. I guess I don't quite understand how your examples are "lower standards". They sound more like "pet peeves". However, I appreciate the time you took to write them and respond below:

1) Is cursive really necessary to spend time teaching? This is open for debate. When is the last time 90% of the population even wrote a letter in cursive? Heck, when is the last time 90% of the population even wrote a letter. We don't teach hieroglyphics either. The way to communicate changes over time. It's not fixed. I could counter with the fact that kids in the 1920's didn't know how to type. But all second graders can basically do so. Is that better or worse?

2) No need to single out children. I have heard lots of adults with poor diction also. I agree that schools need to emphasize speech and debate a bit more. The way you conduct yourself in professional settings goes a long way toward a successful career.

3) Agree that all should know how to read an analog clock. Analog clocks are not going away, at least not yet, not matter how many smartphones one possesses. Plus, analog clocks are cool. :-)

4) I can't remember the last time I used the word "pharmacopoeia". Actually, this post is probably my first time. I'm ambivalent on spelling. One should, of course, know the basics to spelling. But, just like cursive writing, spelling isn't set in stone either. Many of our words have come from generations of adding/subtracting/changing letters and the spelling changes with it.

5) Not sure exactly what the point is here. Is it that teaching Greek and Latin lead to being president?

6) Can't tell you how much I disagree with this statement. Please keep religion out of the public schools. That is a family's decision and NOT any board of education or department.

As for the missing stories:

1) Debatable. I could counter with "As for Jamestown, there was famine. But historians dispute the characterization of the colony as a collectivist society. “To call it socialism is wildly inaccurate,” said Karen Ordahl Kupperman, a historian at New York University and the author of “The Jamestown Project.” “It was a contracted company, and everybody worked for the company. I mean, is Halliburton a socialist scheme?”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/21/weeki ... d=all&_r=0

or

"Why did Jamestown fail? The answer to that question depends on your political persuasion. In fact, Tea Party activists have found in Jamestown an analogy for the evils of socialism. It was the settlers' practice of collectivism, this argument goes, that led to their destruction.

Many historians say this argument is simplistic, and does not survive the most rudimentary historical scrutiny. In fact, the Jamestown colony was sponsored by the Virginia Company of London, whose stockholders financed the venture with the hope of turning a profit on New World gold. And so a competing narrative is that the colonists' hunger for gold was so insatiable that the profit motive blinded them from their responsibilities to the community."

http://bigthink.com/think-tank/the-firs ... of-history

2) Is this really a missing story or you just wanted to point out that Benghazi was a failure?

3) Again, I don't think this is a "missing" story. Is it in every history book, no. But civil war buffs and history geeks (like myself) definitely know it occurred. And many, many books have been written about "states rights vs slavery" as the cause of the civil war. Not missing at all.

4) Also again, I don't really see how this is a "missing" story. As a matter of fact, several years ago I read a great book on this (borrowed from the Lakewood Public Library) "The Pirate Coast : Thomas Jefferson, the First Marines and the Secret Mission of 1805". Highly recommended.

Anyways, I appreciate the time you took to show your viewpoints. I disagree with the main assertion that somehow kids today would be better off if they learned like we did in 1904. Things change. Could school be better? Yes, absolutely. But it could also be worse.

Re: Common Core and the upcoming levy

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:18 am
by Bill Call
Matthew Lee wrote:Anyways, I appreciate the time you took to show your viewpoints. I disagree with the main assertion that somehow kids today would be better off if they learned like we did in 1904. Things change. Could school be better? Yes, absolutely. But it could also be worse.


What do students learn, what do they need to learn, how best to teach what needs to be learned and how to measure progress?

http://articles.philly.com/1987-08-25/n ... ty-elitism

Re: Common Core and the upcoming levy

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:06 am
by Gary Rice
As a retired public school teacher, I'll just throw my proverbial two cents in here, for what they may be worth.

Almost everybody wants some kind of "standards education" in the public schools and almost no one agrees what those standards should be! :shock:

The "Common Core" concept is but one of the latest in a long line of efforts towards that end. Before long, some other fancy named concept will probably take its place; not because having some common standards is a bad idea, but because agreement as to WHAT EXACTLY those standards should be has always been an elusive goal.

As has been pointed out here quite starkly with some of these posts, there is absolutely NO political agreement as to WHAT that common core should be, nor, would I imagine, will there be anything approaching any type of agreement any time soon. :roll:

National standards vs. local control? Same stuff the Civil War was fought about. :roll:

Some people also favor a far more more practical public education, centering on vocational and real-world problem solving skills like fixing plumbing, repair of roofs, and such. Others want all children to be team-oriented uniformed little worker bees; making no decisions of their own, but forcing their every thoughts into cooperative group orientation. Still others prefer the self-directed classroom, where little Johnny learns in his own way and at his own pace. Some people believe in testing, and an increasing number of people are wanting to opt their kids out of the testing rat-race...

...and of course, there are increasing numbers of parents who are abandoning the public schools for charter schools, online schools, or private education.

Then you have the never-ending debate about public school teachers, their relatively low starting salaries and relatively generous benefit packages. (historically offered as being a practical offset to those abysmal salaries)

Very few people are therefore satisfied with public education as it is today.

And that's a good thing. :D

See it's like this: Public education needs to always be a living, breathing, hotly debated dynamic point of contention in a democracy, because in that way, it is responsible to the people. At the same time, through debates like this, genuine improvements can develop.

Nay-sayers often compare American public education as being "behind" other countries, but NOTHING could be further from the truth, because we include EVERYONE in the collective measurement of our progress. Some of the countries that we emulate weed out their low-performing children to farms and factories by the time that their equivalent to the 8th grade happens. We continue to service all students through the 12th grade and even beyond sometimes, in the case of the special-needs population.

You'll not that my discussion here has not even dealt with academics yet! :shock:

Can there even be non-controversial core academic knowledge content that all of us can agree on?

I would argue.....nope.

Some school districts for example, feel that a student's knowledge of biology is incomplete without a dissection of a larger mammal...a cat, for example. :shock:

Ready for that discussion? :shock:

I rest my case.

Except....

To keep EVERYBODY happy here including the public school religion advocates, it's time for your Scripture lesson.... :D

Kings 3:16-28

That's the story of King Solomon's decision regarding two women, each claiming the same baby. Unable to determine the real mother, Solomon called for a sword to divide the infant. At that point, one of the women relinquished her claim, and at that point, Solomon KNEW that she was in fact the real mom and gave the child to her.

In a symbolic way, that story repeats itself every time we debate the merits of public education concerning our children. Do we disagree and divide our positions at ALL costs, or wisely step back, and do what is best for the child?

The important thing, I suppose, is that we continue to value the concept of public education and support it as being one of THE foundations of American liberty. :D

Support your public schools. Vote for the levy. :D

Back to the banjo.... :D

Re: Common Core and the upcoming levy

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:12 am
by Bill Call
City Journal has one of the best articles about the core curriulum that I've seen.

http://www.city-journal.org/2012/22_3_c ... eform.html

Other thoughts:

Students with a strong vocabulary are better readers
Better readers are better learners
Phonics is essential
Content based education is vital
Progressive education (as in most things "progressive") is a cancer.

Re: Common Core and the upcoming levy

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:12 am
by Bill Call
Bill Call wrote:City Journal has one of the best articles about the core curriculum that I've seen.

http://www.city-journal.org/2012/22_3_c ... eform.html

Other thoughts:

Students with a strong vocabulary are better readers
Better readers are better learners
Phonics is essential
Content based education is vital
Progressive education (as in most things "progressive") is a cancer.

Re: Common Core and the upcoming levy

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:11 am
by Gary Rice
Whatever so-called "standards" might be mandated in the public schools, whatever methodology might be accepted as being the "norm", the idea of "one-size-fits-all education" has been a colossal failure for many children.

As a retired special education teacher, I had to deal with the catastrophe of trying to assist children who, in one way or another, were unable to keep up with the rest of the group as the majority of students advanced from year to year.

This special education teacher had a particularly acute empathy for those children, particularly since I'd had a few issues like that myself while growing up.

Many subjects, like arithmetic for example, are skill-on-skill oriented. If you're having trouble adding, you're not going to be a whiz at subtraction. If you have difficulty memorizing your multiplication facts, next week's division lesson will be a mystery...

See what I mean? Not everyone will be able to complete page 32 on Monday. :shock:

At least, not without a calculator. :D

Seriously, what DO you do with the kids who just need MORE TIME? :shock:

Districts had their curriculum, but I HAD THEIR KIDS, and the two DID NOT always align well.

For years we had "level 1" and "level 2" classes, with the level 1's allowing that time, but the courts did away with that as (if I recall) being somehow unequal.

Nowadays, there is much more responsiveness to individual needs in forward-thinking districts like Lakewood's. At the same time, the demand for national lock-step uniform curriculum standards continues to threaten individual educational needs, at least in my opinion.

The astoundingly high drop-out rate in many districts. (fortunately not Lakewood's) has been related by some to the high prison population in our country. If young people are not given ways to experience success through our normal societal channels, they will find other ways to get by, with sometimes disastrous results.

Yes, "phonics" does work well...for some kids, while the "whole word approach" works well for others...There are many ways to skin a cat, or so the old saying went, but fortunately, not in Lakewood's Biology labs! :D

One-size-fits-all education?

A lost cause indeed, in my honest opinion, but unfortunately one that still has a lot of support, ironically often among people who otherwise highly value small government, individual independence, and personal freedoms. :roll:

The Lakewood schools do a monumental job addressing the needs of their diverse student population. :D

Support your kids. Please support the levy! :D

Back to the banjo... :D

Re: Common Core and the upcoming levy

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:30 am
by Peter Grossetti
Gary Rice wrote:The Lakewood schools do a monumental job addressing the needs of their diverse student population. :D


It's sad and scary how many people in Lakewood are afraid of that wonderfully beautiful diversity! :cry: