The Observation Deck

I was just merely trying to report that no had shown up to the meeting specifically, although, like I said, I am glad to hear that you, and others sharing your position are getting involved in other ways (I do understand there are many ways to share your views with our representatives). I am also glad to here you are having a very easy and open conversation with many members of council and the administration so far.

I like your point that their sole job is to represent the people of Lakewood and that it would be impractical for every person in the city do be in the government. However with that said I just want to reiterate a point I made on another thread (and not only in regards to this point, but every point council considers). There is over 50,000 people in Lakewood and each one with different views on all sorts of different subjects. Our Council members have the un-gratifying job of representing all of them and their differing opinions, which means that they cant always make everyone happy. (I say again, this is not directed at this particular situation, just a reminder of there tough job in every decision they make)

REMINDER: There will be a Housing Committee Meeting Monday, July 9, 2012, 6:00 PM in the Jury Room of Lakewood City Hall, 12650 Detroit Avenue, Lakewood, Ohio. The agenda is as follows:

• ORDINANCE NO. 32-12 AN ORDINANCE mending Section 741.071, Display for Sale of Household Goods and Furnishings from Non-retail Occupancies, of the Codified Ordinances of the City of Lakewood to establish regulations for yard and garage sales. (1st Reading 6/4/12 Regular Meeting of Council, 2nd Reading 6/18/12)

• ORDINANCE NO. 36-12 - AN ORDINANCE amending Section 1306.44, License Application Form and Fee, for the purpose of updating vacant property license requirements. …exempt owners of vacant properties actively marketed for sale from the requirement that all utilities be disconnected (1ST Reading 7/2/12 Regular Meeting of Council)

David Anderson, Chair
Mary Louise Madigan, Monique Smith; Members
HOUSING COMMITTEE

Hope to see many of you there. IMHO, it's not enough to just send an email to council people (though that is a very good frist step). I encourage everyone to attend committee meetings and full council meetings ... and NOT only when your particular NIMBY issue is being discussed. Why? 1.) These meetings are better than any reality show on TV. 2.) It is important to understand that each and every issue before council is intertwinded in some way, shape or form. 3.) This is YOUR/OUR government.

Hello, all.

I just wanted to send a quick email thanking everyone for the comments on this topic. (I'm typing quickly here and hope there are no type-o's.)

In addition to this thread, I have also received a number of phone calls, emails. A few folks have even stopped me to discuss in person.

I have a half dozen or so thoughts/questions added to my additional thoughts on proposed Ordinance 32-12.

One specific side point that's been brought to my attention a few times goes along the lines of, "Doesn't Council have anything better to do?"

Well, I have three reactions. One is that this is a very important issue to the residents who have contacted me who have lived next to a constant garage sale for years that we should have considered such changes many moons ago. Second, I consider anything on the docket or in committee (whether or not it was introduced by a member of Council or, as is the case here, by the Administration) as an opportunity to learn more about Lakewood and how it operates. Third, I cannot speak for others, but, I feel the process helps us – Council, residents, Administration – in better understanding the next issue.

Again, thanks for the input and I feel we are moving towards an ordinance that will help individuals hold successful sales while preventing abuse and strain on neighbors and a neighborhood.

Yours in service,

David W. Anderson
Councilman, Ward 1
216-789-6463

David Anderson wrote:Well, I have three reactions. One is that this is a very important issue to the residents who have contacted me

Well said. Sometimes people here forget they are a small portion of what makes up Lakewood.

For your edification ...


MINUTES OF THE HOUSING COMMITEE
7-9-12 Jury Room


Present: David Anderson, Mary Louise Madigan

Also Present: Ryan Nowlin, Shawn Juris, Hilary Schickler (Lakewood Alive), Eric Sandy (Sun News), Anthony Davis (Lovelakewood.com), Colin McEwen (Lakewood Patch), 4 members of the public

Call to Order: 6:00 pm

Proposed Ordinance 32-12 – Amending section 741.071, Display for Sale of Household Goods and Furnishings from Non-retail Occupancies to establish regulations for yard and garage sales..

Mr. Anderson stated that committee member Smith was unable to attend the meeting.

Mr. Anderson stated that for the vast majority, garage sales are not a nuisance but he has received calls and emails from neighbors of habitual garage salers and there is nothing on the books right now to prevent that. He would like to find a way for residents to have successful garage sales. Items to consider are the number of sales, location and signage.

Mr. Butler stated that it has been suggested that there are already areas within the code to cover nuisance garage sales. He explained that there are specific nuisances covered such as animal waste, lights, odors, wood burning boilers and tall weeds and grass but nothing that would cover garage sales. Mr. Butler also explained that the zoning code outright prohibits commercial activity in a residential area but that would outlaw all garage sales, not just the habitual ones. He stated that the alternative is to regulate the sales as other Northeast Ohio cities do. Omission of regulations could be interpreted as being allowed 365 days a year. Mr. Butler stated that the City gets many calls on this and Building and Council has asked for legislation.

Mr. Butler listed the changes made after the last Housing meeting.
741.071 (a) “two” sales changed to “four” sales.
(b) “two” consecutive calendar days changed to “four”
(d) Changed to “Three signs measuring les than five square feet each, may
be temporarily displayed one day prior to and during the operation
of the sale but not at other times.”
(e) stricken entirely

Mr. Nowlin stated that since this proposed ordinance came about he has paid attention to the signs. He noticed that there are many signs and they don’t look good. He stated that it is a catch 22 as garage sales depend on drive by traffic seeing the signs but the signs don’t look good.

Mr. Butler stated that the code prohibits signage in residential zones and outright prohibits garage sale signs on utility poles and tree lawns. He explained that current language could be kept which would allow each administration to determine how strict it will be or, prohibitions could be carved out now. Mr. Butler asked that Council develop community standards now. He would like to have some standard set rather than leave the code silent.

Ms. Madigan stated that she had asked at the last meeting that sales in the front yard be allowed so that apartment buildings can have them.

Mr. Butler stated that as the ordinance is written now, apartments would be prohibited from have sales.

Ms. Madigan made a motion to amend the preamble to include residential properties in residential zones.
Seconded by Mr. Anderson

Ms. Madigan stated that she did not believe three signs would be enough. She explained that she would prefer to have a fine for signs left up after the date of the sale.

Mr. Juris stated that it is up to the Public Works Director to pick up the signs and enforce the prohibition. He stated that he appreciates the need for more signs but cannot think of where they would go as they are prohibited on utility poles and tree lawns.

Mr. Butler stated that administrative fees vs. fines have been discussed in the past and that fines cannot be disguised as administrative fees. He suggested that Public Works pick up the signs but no fee be assessed.

Mr. Juris suggested Public Works pick up the signs and charge a fee but would be an administrative decision.

Mr. Butler stated that an option would be to carve out an exception for garage sales. He explained that assessing fees can cost too much and often doesn’t justify the expense.
Mr. Anderson suggested carving out permission for signs on public property. He stated that the ordinance is meant to be a tool when issues come up.

Ms. Madigan stated that her biggest issue is the signs left up after the sale.

Mr. Juris stated that it was his hope to protect the neighborhood around the person having the garage sale. He believes that four garage sales in the few weeks of the summer season is too many. He stated that the committee is overcompensating for those who want to run a borderline business. Mr. Juris stated that people could get the word out by tweeting, Facebook and Craigslist rather than posting signs and creating an eyesore.

Mr. Anderson stated that taking garage sales from potentially 365 days to 12 is not too many.

Ms. Madigan agreed with Mr. Anderson and reiterated the need for cleaning up afterwards.

Mr. Anderson stated that there is more work to do and he will not be reporting out on this yet.

Mr. Nowlin asked about multiple family homes.

Mr. Anderson stated that the number would be per structure, not unit.

Mr. Butler stated that the nuisance garage sales are felt most acutely by the neighbors and 4 sales for each unit could result in 16 sales.

Mr. Anderson stated that the police would not be patrolling for sales but the ordinance could be used as a tool if a neighbor complains.

Tom Callahan 1072 Parkside stated that 4 sales are 2 too many and should not be able to go past 5:00 or 6:00 pm.

Joan Callahan 1072 Parkside stated that she lives next door to someone who has frequent sales. She believes that it is driving down her property value as no one would want to live next door to the constant sales. She stated that the sales are a commercial business as one day they had 25 bikes in the front yard. She believes the neighbor should open a storefront if running a commercial business. Ms. Callahan stated that she is tired of the noise and parking and appealed to the city to do something about it.

Christina Ward 1430 Newman stated that some signs just have an arrow without an address so would be difficult to fine for the sign. She suggested people post signs on bulletin boards in stores and coffee shops. Ms. Ward stated that sales should be allowed in the front yard for more visibility. She also stated that she believes the city has more important things to deal with than garage sales.

Mr. Butler stated that the city does have more important things to deal with and does so every day. While it may not be the most important thing for the city, it is important to those who live next door to a continual garage sale.

Peter Grossetti 1470 Lincoln asked about regulations regarding the sale of canned goods, guns and mattresses.

Mr. Butler stated that “household goods” does leave room for interpretation though food should be regulated in other areas. He also noted that language in the South Euclid ordinance prohibits the “creation of goods for sale”.

Ms. Madigan asked if anyone was ever cited for an ongoing sale and what the remedy for it.

Mr. Butler stated that a correction notice would be the remedy as it is unlawful under the zoning code but would open the argument that is already being allowed.

Mr. Anderson stated that there would be another meeting regarding this issue and moved the conversation to the next item on the agenda.

Proposed Ordinance 36-12 amending Section 1306.44, License Application Form and Fee for the purpose of updating vacant property license requirements – exempting owners of vacant properties actively marketed for sale from the requirement that all utilities be disconnected.

Mr. Butler stated that he hoped Council would consider adopting 36-12 at the next Council meeting. He explained that ordinance 55-10, the licensing scheme, has been beneficial. The idea is to license properties that have been vacant at least six straight month which helps the city keep track of vacant properties. By recommendation of the Fire Chief, one of the regulations was to have the electricity shut off to prevent fires in vacant properties. The City has received many responses since the first wave of applications were sent out stating that electricity was necessary for those properties actively being marketed for sale.

Mr. Anderson asked the definition of “actively”

Mr. Butler stated that it must be listed or have some evidence of being marketed.

Mr. Butler distributed a copy of the current application (see attached)

Ms. Madigan stated that it seemed reasonable.

Mr. Anderson made a motion to recommend passing 36-12 to full council
Seconded by Ms. Madigan.

Ms. Ward asked about homes that were being worked on.

Mr. Anderson stated that the house would have to be completely vacant to require the license.


Mr. Anderson adjourned the meeting at 7:05 pm

Thank you, Peter.

The following quote makes me wonder whether Ward 3 Lakewood City Councilman Shawn Juris has ever attended or held a yard/garage sale:

Mr. Juris stated that it was his hope to protect the neighborhood around the person having the garage sale. He believes that four garage sales in the few weeks of the summer season is too many. He stated that the committee is overcompensating for those who want to run a borderline business. Mr. Juris stated that people could get the word out by tweeting, Facebook and Craigslist rather than posting signs and creating an eyesore.

I have the following questions for Ward 1 Lakewood City Councilman David Anderson - especially in light of the positions taken by Ward 3 Councilman Juris:

What "facts" exist to support the position that specific neighborhoods need protected from garage/yard sale? What are those neighborhoods?

What "facts" exist to support the position that four garage sales in the few weeks of the summer season are too many?

What "facts" exist to support the position that there are those who want to run a borderline business? And, by the way, what is a borderline business?

What "facts" exist to support the position that people could get the garage/yard sale word out by Twitter, Facebook, and Craigslist rather than posting signs?

City Hall has stated that a very large number of Lakewood residents do not have access to computers and/or the Internet, at all. I believe I have heard City Hall say that up to 70% of Lakewood residents do not have access to computers and/or the Internet but, because I do not know the exact number, please share the "facts" as to how many Lakewood Citizens have access to computers and the Internet.

What plan does City Hall have to make politicians running for office "get the word out by tweeting, Facebook and Craigslist rather than posting signs and creating an eyesore?"

Thanks, in advance, David.

Matt

Good discussion, hope they can continue to dig deeper and come up with some "universal" type guidelines.

Betsy Voinovich wrote:PLEASE take a moment to email our Council so your experience can be put to work for our community.

Betsy Voinovich wrote:I wanted to remind everybody that if you have opinions that you haven't seen expressed here in Councilman Anderson's post, that you have time to email City Council about what you think the appropriate and fair structure of Lakewood garage sales would be.

Councilman Powers followed up last week with an additional email which included addressing the sign issue, which I was really pleased to see.

Good suggestions, Betsy.

Today, July 17, 2012, at 9:15 a.m., I sent my above post to the Mayor, Law Director, and all members of City Council via email. I also shared with them my prior post in this thread as to my position on this matter.

By the way, I am not surprised that At-Large Lakewood City Councilman Brian E. Powers responded to your email. Brian is very responsive.

Matt

Matthew John Markling wrote: By the way, I am not surprised that At-Large Lakewood City Councilman Brian E. Powers responded to your email. Brian is very responsive.

On 7/2, I sent emails to my own councilperson, the at-large councilpersons, the chairperson and cc'd the Law Director.

I received responsive email replies from: Brian Powers (7/2), David Anderson (7/6), Ryan Nowlin (7/9), and was very pleased (and maybe surprised) about it. I know everybody is busy, so they were nice to to get.

Matthew John Markling wrote:The following quote makes me wonder whether Ward 3 Lakewood City Councilman Shawn Juris has ever attended or held a yard/garage sale:

Mr. Juris stated that it was his hope to protect the neighborhood around the person having the garage sale. He believes that four garage sales in the few weeks of the summer season is too many. He stated that the committee is overcompensating for those who want to run a borderline business. Mr. Juris stated that people could get the word out by tweeting, Facebook and Craigslist rather than posting signs and creating an eyesore.

*four sales in the summer season equal twelve days of garage sales....how many days does one need for selling their used wares? in my opinion that does equal a borderline business. and for garage sale fanatics such as myself, craigslist is the best way to find one. as an aside, most people who run that many garage sales are already advertising their used wares on craigslist...if you want to see the proof, check out craigslist for yourself.*

I have the following questions for Ward 1 Lakewood City Councilman David Anderson - especially in light of the positions taken by Ward 3 Councilman Juris:

What "facts" exist to support the position that specific neighborhoods need protected from garage/yard sale? What are those neighborhoods?

*Joan Callahan 1072 Parkside stated that she lives next door to someone who has frequent sales. She believes that it is driving down her property value as no one would want to live next door to the constant sales. She stated that the sales are a commercial business as one day they had 25 bikes in the front yard. She believes the neighbor should open a storefront if running a commercial business. Ms. Callahan stated that she is tired of the noise and parking and appealed to the city to do something about it...i know, i know, it is only one "fact" but a fact nonetheless.*

and it's lakewood, not the neighborhoods in lakewood, that this affects so what "neighborhoods" that need protected is a question asked for the sake of asking a question.

What "facts" exist to support the position that four garage sales in the few weeks of the summer season are too many?

*how about math as a fact...four garage sales in the few summer months...let's see, four garage sales at three days a pop equals twelve days. again, twelve days is not enough to sell crap that you want to get rid of?*

What "facts" exist to support the position that there are those who want to run a borderline business? And, by the way, what is a borderline business?

25 bikes in the front yard.

that's a borderline business. let me spell out borderline business a bit better for the slow to learn....someone who constantly sells shit out of their yard without paying taxes, or complying with all the things that a regular business should ie. handicapped accessibility, diverse employees that are actually paid a minimum wage, workman's comp, and on and on

What "facts" exist to support the position that people could get the garage/yard sale word out by Twitter, Facebook, and Craigslist rather than posting signs?

*again, take a look at craigslist under "garage sales" and see for yourself. how many times has anyone followed the signs to a garage sale only to find that that sale no longer exists? many in my experience. that's why i, someone who habitually shops at garage sales and doesnt drive, checks craigslist which is always up to date. and as a resident of lakewood MY WHOLE LIFE, i find the stupid signs that linger for sometimes weeks at a time to be ridiculous and unsightly*

City Hall has stated that a very large number of Lakewood residents do not have access to computers and/or the Internet, at all. I believe I have heard City Hall say that up to 70% of Lakewood residents do not have access to computers and/or the Internet but, because I do not know the exact number, please share the "facts" as to how many Lakewood Citizens have access to computers and the Internet.

*70%? ok, i live on planet earth do you? btw, no one at city hall is gonna quote a number on that "fact". try at&t or other service providers. maybe then you can get your "facts". everyone i know, mostly poor struggling people such as myself, either have access through the library or their cellphones.*

What plan does City Hall have to make politicians running for office "get the word out by tweeting, Facebook and Craigslist rather than posting signs and creating an eyesore?

*there is no plan because, again i live on planet earth, and everyone that resides here on this wonderful sphere knows that laws don't apply to politicians*

i get worked up over the heat, not over the "fact" that i can't go to a garage sale at the same house, selling the same shit more than once or twice a summer.

"Joan Callahan 1072 Parkside stated that she lives next door to someone who has frequent sales. She believes that it is driving down her property value as no one would want to live next door to the constant sales.

Belief or fact?

Peter Grossetti wrote:"Joan Callahan 1072 Parkside stated that she lives next door to someone who has frequent sales. She believes that it is driving down her property value as no one would want to live next door to the constant sales.

belief or fact?

because she believes this makes a difference? she lives there for chrissakes. wasnt it she that actually reported this?

oh and please, don't give me the ol' "they don't get along so she has an axe to grind"

it makes no difference. a homeowner and lakewood taxpayer (mighty effin high taxes given where she lives) has a problem with 25 bikes on a lawn nextdoor and complains about it, she has cause to be heard. regardless, of what she believes about her property values.

if mcdonalds had a "parking lot sale" twelve days in the summer it would have most of the posters in this thread boiling red with outrage and pitchforks. just puttin that out there.

kate e parker wrote:if mcdonalds had a "parking lot sale" twelve days in the summer it would have most of the posters in this thread boiling red with outrage and pitchforks. just puttin that out there.

hold the phone, joan and stop the pressess i could be wrong...

i think at this moment most of the posters in this thread would vilify mickey d's at the present time. however, i believe that these same posters will welcome such an idea in, uh, say three and half years.

yay lakewood!

Peter Grossetti wrote:"Joan Callahan 1072 Parkside stated that she lives next door to someone who has frequent sales. She believes that it is driving down her property value as no one would want to live next door to the constant sales.

Belief or fact?

Peter

Of course this is the sale the good mayor drives by whenever he heads to Clifton Club or West.

It is a problem I a sure for the entire neighborhood.

My point has been since day one, we are writing laws because of this guy?? Really the entire
city goes to more restrictions because city hall cannot figure out how to deal with one person.

.

My "belief vs. fact" comment merely addresses the emerging and prevailing tone of the conversation in this thread (and plenty of others on The Deck lately).