The Observation Deck

i will preface this with "I am not sure if it make sense", but I can see the good of having a law like this on the books if ,for example, the family across the street from you has a garage sale every day or even every weekend because that is what they do to supplement their income. Residential neighborhoods are not zoned for people to sell stuff out of their yard on a regular basis for the obvious reasons. If you wanted to complain to the city about having to look at the crap in the driveway across the street,or the traffic to and from the sale, I think you would appreciate something on the books to back you up, thus preserving the quality of life in your neighborhood. my one and a half cents

Based on what I heard last evening at the committee meeting, at the heart of this matter is addressing those few folks in Lakewood who essentially run a "flea market" business on their front lawns. So, instead of creating yet more laws/ordinances that, in my opinion, over regulates the harmless, time-honored yard/garage sale concept ... shouldn't existing "nuisance ordinances" be be brought into play to crack down on thees habitual offenders?

Peter Grossetti wrote:Based on what I heard last evening at the committee meeting, at the heart of this matter is addressing those few folks in Lakewood who essentially run a "flea market" business on their front lawns. So, instead of creating yet more laws/ordinances that, in my opinion, over regulates the harmless, time-honored yard/garage sale concept ... shouldn't existing "nuisance ordinances" be be brought into play to crack down on thees habitual offenders?

Peter

Bingo!

Why punish everyone, because of a small few? This is a democracy a community, not a
jail, we all do not need to go into lock down!

Now please go and apply this in the park closing thread, where the work of one artist with
a sharpie costs us our parks.

Thealexa is right, doesn't council have more important fish to fry?

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The thing is, there is a great tradition of flea markets in the Cleveland area.

With a garage sale, you may have 150 people see your stuff if you are really fortunate. If you load up the car and go to a flea market, that many people will pass by your area in minutes. Your chances of selling expand exponentially at a flea market.

Garage sales, to me, are not very productive. Those few that we've had over the years have resulted in mediocre sales, much work, too much sun, and annoying bottom-feeding hagglers who try to get into your sale a half-hour early.

Garage sales: A fun place to shop, but not to sell, at least in my experience.

I would imagine that there would be very few people indeed who would want to put on a regular ongoing garage sale.

But you know...I think about all of the internet businesses that are sprouting up out of private homes across the country. Zoning laws were certainly not created to deal with what's going on these days on the 'net, and those are REAL businesses, as compared to selling one's own personal stuff.

So what's the big difference? Either way, a person is selling out of their house, but how ironic it is that the homeowner with the REAL business (in cyberworld) can apparently do so without interference, and even perhaps deduct a percentage of their home office for business purposes, where the person having a simple need to sell Grandma's bric-a-brac might get their wrist slapped.

Such is life in the big city....

Back to the banjo...

Gary Rice wrote:The thing is, there is a great tradition of flea markets in the Cleveland area.

With a garage sale, you may have 150 people see your stuff if you are really fortunate. If you load up the car and go to a flea market, that many people will pass by your area in minutes. Your chances of selling expand exponentially at a flea market.

Garage sales, to me, are not very productive. Those few that we've had over the years have resulted in mediocre sales, much work, too much sun, and annoying bottom-feeding hagglers who try to get into your sale a half-hour early.

Garage sales: A fun place to shop, but not to sell, at least in my experience.

I would imagine that there would be very few people indeed who would want to put on a regular garage sale.

But you know...I think about all of the internet businesses that are sprouting up out of private homes across the country. Zoning laws were certainly not created with what's going on these days on the 'net, and those are REAL businesses, as compared to selling one's own personal stuff.

So what's the big difference? Either way, a person is selling out of their house, but how ironic it is that the homeowner with the REAL business (in cyberworld) can apparently do so without interference, and even perhaps deduct a percentage of their home office for business purposes, where the person having a simple need to sell Grandma's bric-a-brac might get their wrist slapped.

Such is life in the big city....

Back to the banjo...

Gary,

I hate this! This is not "life in the big city." This is little Lakewood, your home and my home where things don't get lost in the shuffle of big city life. Our representatives should LISTEN to us instead of dropping things on our heads and we shrug and move on, "what can we do.."

I don't get this. They are supposed to represent us, they never reach out to see what the community actually feels. The yard sale proposed rules are Draconian. Okay, how about 12 times a year, and three days as a length, and NO permits for signs in your OWN yard for your own sale that you will most certainly take down when you're done?

Most citizens won't have a sale every month, or every 4 months but if they know there is a regulation regarding it, they will keep it in mind.

In our blissful untouched world right now, when we've spent a rainy day cleaning the attic and garage and basement with the kids, we can say, "Hmm, let's have a garage sale next week." Or the kids can decide they want to sell all of their Legos on the front lawn, and when the word goes up and down the street, they really will make some money.

It's part of the charm of what we can do here, in our small middle class city, where we know our neighbors; it's one of the ways we do things together, and support each other, and get to know each other.

If there are households that run a perpetual garage sale, they can be stopped. Why, as Peter and Jim pointed out, should we all be punished? And have part of the charm and fun and individuality and neighborliness of living in Lakewood be stamped out? And the sign thing is ridiculous. The City is preying upon its residents with that one. What's the deal?
LEAVE US ALONE. Where things aren't broken don't BREAK them.

We need to reach out to our representatives and tell them that when they are slicing up our lives, one two three, with their votes, GONE GONE GONE, that they ought to see how WE feel about it BEFORE that. And REPRESENT US. It's all OUR MONEY. We pay their salaries, and the money they are using is ours. When election time comes, each candidate should have a list behind his name: "Closed your parks," "Took away your garage sales" "Granted an easement to let Drug Mart eat your neighbor's house."

And we should vote for people who know that they are supposed to represent us. That means when a proposed change is afoot, THEY LET US KNOW AND SEE WHAT WE THINK. We shouldn't have to police the Council sessions. And Thank God for Chris Bindel and his thorough reports.

And when we have a problem we can't shrug our shoulders and say, "Life in the big city." This is LAKEWOOD. It's not a big city. Gary, you know almost everyone here! This is our home.

Betsy Voinovich

I'm not sure how 'all of us are being punished' by only being allowed to have 2 per year. I have a feeling this will be similar to the mandatory recycling law where nothing ever actually happens unless someone calls attention to you. I think the point IS so that they have something on the books to punish the habitual offenders, as you all seem to want them to be able to do.

Betsy,

I was hoping to be a bit provocative, and you hit the nail right on the head, as you always seem to do so well.

Look, when I sat on the Community Development Block Grant Committee, I felt that there were MANY times that MAJOR issues came before that committee that warranted the attention of all of Lakewood. But....

The fact remains that those open and public hearings often attracted an empty hall.

So it's not necessarily the fault of the" powers-that-be" in our town that they are, and remain the "powers-that-be". Our own "powers-that-be" may have vested interests in BEING the "powers-that be", but sometimes, they are just the "powers-that-be", because no one else shows up to play ball.

It's the fact, the pure fact, that in our society, so few show up and care about government, until AFTER decisions have been made.

I'm glad that you are one of those people who show up on our proverbial playground.

Lakewood is a big city, but we are indeed also a small town in many ways. We pay our elected representatives a relative pittance, but we always have plenty of people willing to step up and serve. We have wealthy, middle class, and poor who are all involved with our city. We do know each other, and that's a good thing.

I'm no fan of "conspiracy theories", as anyone who knows me knows. That said, everyone has particular interests. If people see something going on in government that bothers them, there are plenty of opportunities to get involved in Lakewood at the grassroots level.

Nice place here, big city or not.

Back to the banjo...

Gary Rice wrote:The fact remains that those open and public hearings often attracted an empty hall.

But fault, or by design?

I know of many people that have asked both the schools and city hall to have their
meetings on opposite days or weeks, they refuse. So the schoolboard and council have
made no real effort to reach out, as that would seem like the easiest way to start.

Also the amount of time anyone can address either body is limited.

If a group works endlessly to disenfranchise people, often they succeed, the real
problem is, that is when mischief begins.

Years ago I approached City Hall with a way to make the city more interactive, the answer
was Ed selling the city "OneLakewood" and the site that followed, which while an
improvement over the oldsite, is hardly easy to navigate or interactive. The cost for AGS
to do this was $0.00. The same offer was made to the schools when they were looking for
a new website provider. AGS is 98% Lakewood Grads, 100% their kids go to Lakewood
Schools, instead, they went with a provider from Cincinnati, and they are still complaining
about their site, and what is does not do. "Shop Local" just a saying with City Hall.

City Hall cares more about die-cut expensive brown/black street signs than engaging
the community as real partners.


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I'm assuming this is all discussion, an nothing has been officially submitted or deterimined at this point by the city... is that correct? Based on that, I wouldn't jump to any conclusions what the final decision may or may not be, the input and discussion here is good of course and I also agree it is good to have some rules on the book.

The semi-related item which confuses me are I tend to hear people complain about ideas such as Dollar Store and Value Mart (or whatever)...but how does that differ from garage sales?

Just some points to think about:

- One will sell cheap new items out of a new (or existing) storefront, the other piles old used junk on the residents lawn / porch / garage.
- They both attract similar clientele into the neighborhood

Nuisance ordinances have to be pretty specific, or they are not enforceable. I would suggest to those who assert that the perpetual yard sales that apparently exist be dealt with by them as a nuisance take the time to read the ordinance you want to use, and show us just what part of it bars such activity.

I once had a building inspector tell me I had to make a change to what I was doing. I asked him what part of the code barred it. He said it was a nuisance. I told him good luck with that, and he went away.

Will Brown wrote:Nuisance ordinances have to be pretty specific, or they are not enforceable. I would suggest to those who assert that the perpetual yard sales that apparently exist be dealt with by them as a nuisance take the time to read the ordinance you want to use, and show us just what part of it bars such activity.

I once had a building inspector tell me I had to make a change to what I was doing. I asked him what part of the code barred it. He said it was a nuisance. I told him good luck with that, and he went away.

Good comment

so the person across the street from you piles their crap in the driveway each day of the summer for a perpetual yard sale, you call the police because you are sick of looking at it, and the traffic it brings....and they say " there is no law against a garage sale". The nuisance laws don't cover it.
If they want to have an eternal yard sale then they can rent a storefront....

I posted this in another thread, maybe it goes here as well:

Other than the fact that these proposed changes are only in discussion (I believe) and not something that has been decided, how many people here truly believe the city and it's residents will report poor "Bobby". Once again, if new ordinances are created, isn't this so we can truly enforce those "issues" where the residents would report it? If "Bobby" is being a nuisance and the neighbors call... well maybe he should not be out there (doesn't matter about age or sale content)

I do not for one minute believe the city is going to go around looking for these instances without proper provocation, but when reported they can now act based upon rules.

*slow clap*

Thank you Will, J, and John. Great comments!

There is always this option ... ban yard/garage sales completely and do this twice a year:

http://downtownlakewood.org/citywide-streetsale/