Superintendent announces cuts:Elementary school will close

[Betsy Voinovich]

Are we at $15,000 per year per student yet? You know, $345,000 per classroom?

Betsy if I gave you $345,000 per year and 23 students picked at random could you teach them to read?

Perhaps its time to consider converting the Lakewood Schools into a Board run charter school system.

Wow Bill, when you put it that way.. yes I could. What is this $15,000 figure about? I know our teachers don't get $345,000 to teach a class. How does this 15K break down, and where did you get that number?

Betsy Voinovich

Betsy,

Did you really fall for that? Really?

.

Hi Steve,

Well.. I guess if people were getting 345 thousand dollars to teach I would have heard about it...

My questions remain however. There is a figure per kid, is there not? I remember the first school board meeting I ever attended. Estrop was the Superintendent and the remarkably straightforward discussion was about retaining students in order not to lose money per student.

I am asking where does Bill's figure come from? What is the amount per kid in Lakewood? How is that calculated? I think it's assumed that we all know this, but I do not.

So Steve and Bill, please enlighten me in your unique ways.

Thanks.

Betsy Voinovich

[Ryan Salo]

Betsy,

Here is a link showing enrollment and total budget information. Not sure if this is 100% accurate - Bill may have different information.

http://febp.newamerica.net/k12/OH/3904419

Based on this information, the total annual expenses (74.7M) divided by total number of students (5867)it looks like we spend approx. $12,700 per student. If the average class has 25 kids in it that is $317,000 per year per classroom.

[Betsy Voinovich]

ALL children are gifted and talented, at least they are born that way. It’s a shame that between our schools and us parents we seem to be incapable or unwilling to bring out the best in so many of them….

Hi Tim,

I didn't want this post to get lost. The "gifted" label comes from the State of Ohio which is tasked with identifying, in their words: "GIFTED": "students who perform or show potential for performing at remarkably high levels of accomplishment when compared to others of their age, experience or environment and who are identified under division (A), (B), (C), or (D) of section 3324.03 of the Revised Code." This label is achieved by being in the top percentile in the country for test taking and IQ-- which means it favors those children who do well at taking tests.

It is an unfortunate and old-fashioned non-politically correct label which makes everyone uncomfortable. Of course all children are gifted and talented. Lakewood identifies academically advanced kids with the names of Lakewood programs: "Discovery Program," "Energy program" etc.

Superintendent Patterson described Lakewood Schools as serving kids with "special needs" at all levels of the spectrum. "Differently abled" children are served here. Kids who are very academically advanced are at risk of becoming bored, and checking out, or becoming disruptive in regular classrooms. High IQ's don't mean high maturity levels at all, or even high levels of success if this group isn't identified and served in some way.

Having said that, there is a raging debate about separating this population from their age peer group. "Mainstreaming" is controversial with all levels of the spectrum, and has its strengths and weaknesses.

As I have said, I have been very pleased with the "gifted" programs in Lakewood, but I have to stress that in the grade levels before the District offers the program, I have also been pleased. When my son was getting ready to enter Kindergarten and I met with Ms. Keane, the K teacher at Grant, because I was concerned that my son's high reading level would make him feel like he didn't fit in, she sat me down in a tiny chair and explained that she had FIVE levels of lesson plans at this age! She said that she had kids who could read well, kids who knew their alphabet and could sound out words, kids who just knew the alphabet song, kids who spoke English and didn't know the alphabet, and kids who did not speak English at all, nor did they know the Engish alphabet. All in one classroom.

She explained that at this age, these kids need each other, there's a lot more going on socially than their academic level, and it was amazing and gratifying to watch how they communicated with each other and helped each other learn and adjust to the idea of school. She had help: Title One teachers, parent volunteers, etc. But still, she was integrating five groups and she said that's how it is in Kindergarten.

All teachers have their levels of reading and math groups, and ways of separating students to best serve them in one class, but at a certain point, asking a second grade teacher to serve developmentally disabled kids, high IQ kids, and the normal range in any classroom, in one classroom, can start to take away from the time that each kid deserves to have in their grade level, which is why there are pull-out programs, or completely separate programs, like the "Discovery" and "Champs" programs in Lakewood.

I wanted to answer you because we all should do our best to celebrate our kids, their unique abilities and talents, and I think as parents, we try hard to do this. I wanted to let you know that we have VERY hardworking teachers in Lakewood, who strive to educate, inspire and engage ALL of our kids, wherever they are found. I have three kids who are very different from one another, and friends with kids at all levels and stages, and I could write for an hour describing all of the different ways I've seen teachers in this school system taking great care of our kids.

Betsy Voinovich

[stephen davis]

Are we at $15,000 per year per student yet? You know, $345,000 per classroom?

Betsy if I gave you $345,000 per year and 23 students picked at random could you teach them to read?

Perhaps its time to consider converting the Lakewood Schools into a Board run charter school system.

Wow Bill, when you put it that way.. yes I could. What is this $15,000 figure about? I know our teachers don't get $345,000 to teach a class. How does this 15K break down, and where did you get that number?

Betsy,

Did you really fall for that? Really?

Hi Steve,

Well.. I guess if people were getting 345 thousand dollars to teach I would have heard about it...

My questions remain however. There is a figure per kid, is there not? I remember the first school board meeting I ever attended. Estrop was the Superintendent and the remarkably straightforward discussion was about retaining students in order not to lose money per student.

I am asking where does Bill's figure come from? What is the amount per kid in Lakewood? How is that calculated? I think it's assumed that we all know this, but I do not.

So Steve and Bill, please enlighten me in your unique ways.

Thanks.

Betsy Voinovich

Betsy,

...and then there's statistics.

I'm not even going to argue the veracity of Bill or Ryan's numbers. Even though they differ, they may be in the correct range. I don't know. I have no numbers in front of me.

Pay attention to the argument you have been drawn into.

Read Bill's quote.

You know, $345,000 per classroom?

Betsy if I gave you $345,000 per year and 23 students picked at random could you teach them to read?

Bill challenges you by asking if you could teach 23 children to read for $345,000, like you could pocket all that cash. You may be able to do that. Maybe not. I don't know.

Remember, Bill says that it's "$345,000 per classroom". This first assumes that there is a classroom. That means that there is a classroom within some sort of structure that must be built and maintained to some standard of health, safety, accessibility, and utility.

Right away, your cut of the money, if you are the "teacher", has been reduced by the cost of the physical classroom structure.

Are you going to go beyond just reading? Would the curriculum, be broader than that? Art? Science? Cooking? What else might be important to properly educate this group of 23 students, or many groups of 23 students, as in our Lakewood schools?

If your "classroom" is in a school, in a district of many schools with many grade levels and sufficient educational offerings, just think of the costs of heating and air conditioning, lawn mowing, light bulbs, toilet paper, athletic facilities, ovens for family and consumer sciences, textbooks, food service, transportation, water, maintenance equipment, soap, signage, science lab equipment, overhead projectors, computers, security, playground equipment, electricity, desks, chairs, parking lot sealing, paint, floor cleaning, library book shelves, and fire alarms. I have only scratched the surface.

All those expenses, and you still haven't taught a kid, but they are all needed to create an environment for learning.

To teach thousands of students, either publicly or privately, you need to coordinate all the things that go into it. You need management, human resources, accounting, lawyers, etc.. More costs.

After that, you still need qualified and certified teachers that have worked hard and paid for their education, certification, and professional development to actually teach. The teachers are going to earn a portion of the cost per student.

I really don't want to argue this further, but I'll ask a few questions based on Bill's question. Are you qualified to teach children to read at an expected level? Can you do so in a "classroom" without walls, windows, and bathrooms? Will the children be safe in that environment? Will you be able to enrich them without chairs, textbooks, and teaching materials? Will you be a accountable to whomever pays for these children's educations? Will any of the students "picked at random" have disabilities (Managing students with disabilities could really cut into your cash.)? Okay, if you've got all that covered, how much of the $345,000 do you expect to keep after you pay your accountant and income taxes?

Betsy if I gave you $345,000 per year and 23 students picked at random could you teach them to read?

Well?


Steve




P.S.

Perhaps its time to consider converting the Lakewood Schools into a Board run charter school system.

Huh?

.

[Stan Austin]

Hell, for 345 grand I'd give it a shot---- you know, the old log in the woods thing!

[Sean Wheeler]

Bill Call, while a very nice guy, has historically used his made-up numbers to bolster his fantastical arguments concerning education. The argument that Bill wants is so watered down that it has to exist only in hypothetical terms. Just for fun, I'd throw out that most of us could teach a kid to read for free. And if we could teach one for free, 23 for free isn't much of a stretch. See? Education doesn't require any money. Is that about how it works out Bill? It should, since we're dealing in nothing remotely resembling reality in this argument.

Thanks, Betsy, for your information and continued pursuit of excellence in Lakewood's schools.

[Ryan Salo]

Sean,

I am curious what numbers you would use instead of Bill's "made up" numbers?

Thanks,

Ryan

[Mike Coleman]

The math is pretty simple isn't it.

Total budget divided by total students = how much we're spending per student.

[Myra Beckrest]

"In our dreams, people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present eduction conventions of intellectual and character education fade from their minds, and, unhampered by tradition, we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive folk. We shall not try to make these people, or any of their children, into philosophers, or men of science. We have not to raise up from them authors, educators, poets or men of letters. We shall not search for great artists, painters, musicians nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, politicians, statesmen – of whom we have an ample supply. The task is simple. We will organize children and teach them in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way."
– John D. Rockefeller General Education Board (1906)

"My grandmother wanted me to have an education, so she kept me out of school."
– Margaret Mead

I just thought I'd throw these in here. I have no children at present, but I thought it was interesting how children in the 5th grade in the late 1800's early 1900's used to read classical works, and today they aren't expected to know how to spell simple four letter words, let alone those who aren't able to read and write by the third grade.

How much money did you say per student? I think the log in the woods idea sounds better and better.

[Tim Liston]

“Per student” expenditures are not hard to find. It’s all on the school’s web site.

FY 2012 expenditures will amount to about $72 million. Enrollment is about 5,600. That amounts to about $12,800 per student. Three years from now, expenditures are projected to be about $80,000,000 and enrollment will fall to about 5,400. Then we will reach $14,800 per student. By the way the projection is for a $15,000,000 revenue shortfall by then. Also, by then, salaries will have increased very little over the last several years (due primarily to fewer teachers) but pension payments will have increased 50%. And the projection is for a 20% increase in property tax revenue, which seems dubious to me.

Bottom line is that Bill’s “hypothetical” numbers are certainly close enough for discussion.

[Bill Call]

I just thought I'd throw these in here. I have no children at present, but I thought it was interesting how children in the 5th grade in the late 1800's early 1900's used to read classical works, and today they aren't expected to know how to spell simple four letter words, let alone those who aren't able to read and write by the third grade.

How much money did you say per student? I think the log in the woods idea sounds better and better.

Try this website: http://ilrc.ode.state.oh.us/Districts/Default.asp

Expenditures per pupil:

Lakewood: $12,269
Cleveland Heights: $18,640
Avon Local: $7,800


Enrollment:

Lakewood: 5,667
Cleveland Heights: 5,907
Avon: 3,965

On a per pupil basis Lakewood spends $25 million more per year than Avon. Someone might ask what we get for the extra $25 million but someone would just get himself into trouble.

The poor residents of Cleveland Heights spend an incredible $64 million per year more than Avon on a per pupil basis and have one of the worst performing districts in the entire Country. Think about that. Suppose the spending base to provide an adequate education (as in Avon) was $7,800 per year. Then suppose the powers that be said due to the special circumstances of Cleveland Heights we will spend $64 million more each and every year on the students of Cleveland Heights; over the next five years we will invest an EXTRA $320 million dollars into the Cleveland Heights School district. The result of spending the EXTRA $320 million? One of the worst performing districts in Ohio.

Someone might wonder why so much money gets so little result but someone would get into trouble.

One member of the school board was quoted as saying she "didn't want to revisit" the debate about what elementary school to close. So they seem to be committed to spending an EXTRA $20 million to keep Lincoln open even though when it's completed the new Lincoln will still be to small to house all of those new students.

The board should reconsider its options. Personally, I think a new elementary school at Kaufman Park makes a lot of sense. Most of the park would still be a park and it would be a better park. The new school would be centrally located, would be big enough to house students from the Center of the City and would save the district millions in construction costs.

Of course what is really going to happen is that we will spend an extra $20 million for an inadequate facility and in a few years spend $15,000 per pupil doing the same things we are doing now.

The subject of the failure of American education is worth its own post. We are spending more than ever yet results are no better, the graduation rate is worse and the material covered is so water down that most college graduates leave college with what used to be called a mediocre high school education.

Do you know what the most common college grade is? A
50 years ago the average grade was C.

Any opinions on which letter grade was a more accurate reflection of reality?

[stephen davis]

Sean,

I am curious what numbers you would use instead of Bill's "made up" numbers?

Thanks,

Ryan

Ryan,

I am curious what numbers you would use instead of Bill's "made up" numbers that follow?

The poor residents of Cleveland Heights spend an incredible $64 million per year more than Avon on a per pupil basis...

Think about that.

I thought about that. I agree with Bill. That number IS "incredible"!

Thanks,

Steve

.

[J Hrlec]

Sean,

I am curious what numbers you would use instead of Bill's "made up" numbers?

Thanks,

Ryan

Ryan,

I am curious what numbers you would use instead of Bill's "made up" numbers that follow?

The poor residents of Cleveland Heights spend an incredible $64 million per year more than Avon on a per pupil basis...

Think about that.

I thought about that. I agree with Bill. That number IS "incredible"!

Thanks,

Steve

.

I would suggest start in order.... first explain what numbers are 'correct' compared to Bill's $/per student then we can switch and focus and answer what numbers are 'correct' in regards to his statement about Cleveland Heights.

Any takers?

[Sean Wheeler]

Oops. I hit the button twice and double posted. See below .

[Sean Wheeler]

My reference to "made-up numbers" has less to do with a dispute about per-pupil expenditures and more to do with the incredible logical leap that it takes to assume $345,000 per classroom without considering the structural costs involved in running a school district. Stephen Davis sees it clearly and did a great job picking this idea apart in his post above.

While Bill Call likes to always compare Lakewood's budget to Avon's, he fails to share that Avon only has three elementary schools and one middle school. He mentions that we cut technology, but doesn't mention that the cuts were in licenses. Similar cuts are being made all over the world as more open-source alternatives become available. He mentions textbook reductions, but fails to understand that a textbook budget is going the way of an inkwell and feather pen budget. Lakewood hasn't given up on technology and textbooks, in numerous classrooms in this district we're fusing technology and textbooks. Ask around and you'll find that Lakewood is fast becoming a model for blended learning and innovative uses of technology for teaching and learning.

I gave up trying to get Mr. Call to substitute his false notions of what we do in school everyday for anything based in reality. I challenge the whole assumption that we're not doing a great job here in Lakewood. In a post above, it was even mentioned that students don't read literature or spell anymore! Nothing could be further from the truth. But that has never stopped a good education "debate", and these kinds of debates are probably best left to the "experts".

I am really proud of our schools as a parent, a teacher, and an alumn. Our district, as a whole, has had to make severe cuts and more are on the way. It's pretty disheartening to read about our "failing schools" when they aren't failing, "pay-raises" amidst pay-freezes and staff reduction, and hints of conspiracy and shady dealing in what I thought was a very open community discussion about the challenges that lie ahead. Most of all, I hope that our schools and community can live up to the strong tradition of excellence that has always been associated with Lakewood, especially in these tough economic times.