The Observation Deck

I feel like I am watching an episode of the Twighlight Zone...

Christopher Bindel wrote:I apologize, apparently I was looking at an un-refreshed page of this discussion and see many of my points were already covered by Dennis himself. My points still stand however. Try doing some research in the future so you can make educated statements before you start questioning people ethics, or your response to anything for that mater.

Chris

I would ask you to do the same.

I made the assumption, and a correct one that Kate and Dennis were related.
Something I actually knew before hand.

The rest were quotes from Business Insider and the Wall Street Journal that has been
running exposes on the media business and Patch. I think if you go to Business Insider
you will see copies of AOL Business Plans for "running the small local media out of business,
then only cover the news you can monetize." This is not me making it up, it comes from AOL. AOL editors, sharing inside memos about the practices I mentioned and more. I only
bring it up because I thought we were talking about the LO's Business practices, and I
thought maybe it would be more fair to compare products.

How much more studying do I need to do?

FWIW


.

I was not commenting on your sources for that, because you sourced that. I was on the other hand pointing out that in the quote below it was like you were trying to make people believe that Kate was using faux names to write articles and post. Which if you have proof of fine, but otherwise stop trying to manipulate peoples perspectives when you know very well they are false (as you stated, you knew he was her father).

I know Kate Spirgen is a local editor, and some local editors of Patch use fictitious names on
stories and posts, set back time of posts to seem like they were there first, and even use
faux names on their boards.

Chris: Since you have known Kate for a long time and write for The Observer, I appreciate your kind words. You absolutely nailed the point of my posts.

For the record, though, bloggers do not write "articles" for Patch. Bloggers speak only for themselves, and do not purport to be journalists. I try to make my blog informative, but no one would ever confuse it with "news."

Keep working to make The Observer better. Everyone in Lakewood will benefit.

Dennis, sorry, I was not trying to insinuate that you are a writer for the Patch. I thought it was just an independently submitted article and did not realize it was from your regular blog. Thanks for the clarification.

Do bloggers puport to be "columnists" (one who writes a newspaper or magazine column).

We sure are splitting hairs here!

Christopher Bindel wrote:I apologize, apparently I was looking at an un-refreshed page of this discussion and see many of my points were already covered by Dennis himself. My points still stand however. Try doing some research in the future so you can make educated statements before you start questioning people ethics, or your response to anything for that mater.

Dennis

I am saying you are a writer for the Patch and that your daughter is employed by Patch.

I spoke with Colin this afternoon, and I believe you are living in a dream world. The LO
is responsible for what is on our site, legally. Now we have disclaimers, but it would
not stop something from making it to court. As a litigation lawyer I am sure you are
aware of that. Actually people in this very thread have threatened lawsuits because of posts on the Deck, and the LO lawyers were called in to deal with it.

So this concept of "I just blog" is basically ludicrous.

Chris, go back read the thread, while I am not the master of words you are, I think you
will see my point. I asked about the relationship in my post, and then asked some mutual friends. I was assured Dennis was her father. Why would I go to a blog that no one takes ownership of for facts as you suggested I should? My god! It would be like going to facebook for facts!

Everything in italics, with the * is from the Wall Street Journal and Business Insider. It
is from AOL memos. You remember the owner of Patch, AOL, the hyper local company?
In it are suggestions about how to get more traffic, how to nudge readership facts, how to get in with a city and put the little guys out of business. How to make people buy in to the idea that you are really a small local company not a chain, and on and on and on and on.

I have never posted the hundreds of pages developed by Business Insider, or WSJ, as
it really is not my deal, plus I have had some mutual agreements with Colin, stop your
peeps from spamming the LO, and I can promise you, the LO peeps will not spam you.
This comes from the fact that every other site in town has had their little moments of
immaturity and have spammed the LO.

If Dennis, a blogger, and depending on how much time he spends on his stories, potential
worker for Patch, no matter if pay is exchanged or not, (read Ohio work laws) and the
father of an Editor of Patch, and one can only imagine him as a good protecting father,
comes in flaming, then what would one think? For the record I like Kate, I like that she is from Lakewood, she did a good job for the Sun. We were actually thinking of making her an offer when we heard she was not happy with the added work load. However, they never
materialized, and I believe she is very happy, and least she seems that way at the
meetings with corporate at the Root.

However, I did not take the first post by Dennis as spam. I figured it was a legitimate
question, that I see answered numerous times. So to continue beating the dead horse
so to speak seems more like gratuitous puffer, I am a lawyer, I am a blogger, I am
outraged, you bullied me? you bullied my daughter? more than why a news photo I
took with a story would dare to appear in the paper, let alone on the sacred front page,
below the fold, with a QR Code to the website to boot. I am still trying to figure out why it
was such abuse?

Where was the outrage when I wrote about the LakewoodAlive housing program and it
ended up above the fold because the editor thought it was an important story?

I am starting to agree with Eisel, and that is never a good sign for him or me.

.

I was not saying you should go to his blog, or even to take a google search as fact, but rather, instead of insinuating (even when you don’t think its true) that she might post things under a faux name, that you maybe take a few minutes to see if you can verify someone’s identity before questioning someone’s ethics in public.

It is really easy to make false statements or insinuations, but it much harder to retract them, because not everyone you reached with the first comment will get the retraction. It is the same idea as implying someone was a communist in the 1950's. Once you said it, whether it was true or not, it didn’t mater. From that point on in the eyes of everyone they would be labeled as a communist. Questioning someone’s professional integrity in public with no proof is no better, and even worse if you believe it to be false in the first place.

As for the rest of the points I am staying out of. The only thing I am concerned with here is your hastiness with false insinuations. Which you have yet to apologies for. Keep in mind, slander and libel do still exist.

Stephen Eisel wrote:I feel like I am watching an episode of the Twighlight Zone...

Hi Stephen,

I agree with you.

I come home last night and check in with the Deck and see a flat-out attack on Jim, and on the Lakewood Observer project that many many of us work so hard on, because there is a picture of the bike rack at the new CVS on the front page, a good picture for the front page, since it’s interesting and new, and rather than saying, “See page 8 inside for story” there's a link (see link "CVS Your Prescription Is Almost Ready"), and the QR code for those smart phone people, to the LO website because there’s no room in the paper. It goes to Jim's post of the same name on the Deck, a post that now has many responses, because that is what the Deck is for.

And this is an example of his “endless ego gratification”? A story about how CVS, using a local architect, has done a pretty good job of putting up a somewhat unpopular project? Jim's printing a picture and posting a link to the Deck so readers can comment themselves on what is going on is “ego gratification”?

Why? Because Jim O’Bryan wrote it and he is the publisher (and one of the founders) of the Observer project? I am one of many volunteer editors for the Lakewood Observer and I can assure you that he is correct about how few stories he has had in print, and the fact that he routinely pushes aside stories written by himself, and Observer regulars to allow more space for new writers and new community news, which is good for the community and good for the Observer because it helps the project grow, and it helps the community because new readers and residents have room to share their information in print. (It ALL goes online.)

Again, where is the “ego gratification”? The Lakewood Observer project is written by the community. Take a look at it page by page if you don’t believe it. Jim is allowed to be part of the community.

We have had stories in the newspaper that were born from threads on the Deck, often we put the QR code to the thread that inspired the story in the paper at the end of the story. We have many posts on the Deck inspired by stories in the paper. Sometimes the author of the story, or a reader, will post an entire story from the newsprint edition (which is online) onto the Deck, so that readers can comment on it. The most recent example I can remember of that is my posting the Amnesty Day story from the library on the Deck to remind people that there was only one more day to turn their books in. The time before that I think I posted the entire Hens in Lakewood story under a thread about attending their meeting that night because I thought it would help provide info about the night’s meeting. A lot of times people just post the portions of stories that they want to comment on.

Any user of the Deck can put any story onto the Deck from the online paper to get a discussion going about it. Sometimes people post stories from the Sun, or correspondence from Councilpeople, all in order to share it with other readers, and to find out what other people think.

There is no evidence of Jim’s “ego gratification.” Or if you are going to level that criticism at this project, I guess you should say it about all of us. Some of us do tend to rant and rave, or at least go on and on (look at the post you are reading this very minute!) and here we have a place to do it.

Later you say that Jim is a bully and beats down any opinion other than his own. Again, this is flat out untrue and again it is an attack on the project, and all of the people who contribute to it. Look at the Deck. Look at the different threads. Look how many people disagree with each other and the rather large number of people who disagree with Jim. It’s true that he pokes at issues, and probes people’s comments to go deeper; he likes to be an Agent Provocateur and in most cases, his “provoking” leads to better and more in depth discussion. And some days he is more reasonable than others. We are all like that. And sometimes it leads to people to calling him a jerk and going away. But those same people can come back at any time and Jim can defend himself at any time.

This is discussion, this is debate, it is great for our community—it enables us to be aware of what is happening, and what other people think, and to share our sometimes competing ideas. This leads to positive change. There are many examples of it, my favorite one, and one of the least controversial, being the “snow summit” that led to “Clear for Kids.” The only problem with that is that it didn’t snow enough this winter to see if it actually worked.

The Lakewood Observer project --and ALL the Observer projects, I think there are nine community papers now-- want EVERYONE to know that they should write for their paper and for the Deck if they have something to share with their community.

We want Deck users to use the printed newspaper, we want newspaper readers to use the Deck. It’s one project, the difference being that we have unlimited space online.

Betsy Voinovich

p.s. Chris, Jim said that WSJ had said that some local Patch editors used questionable practices. He said that Kate Spirgen is a local editor. That's the long and the short of it. He didn't say that she was one of those local editors. He just said that she is a local editor. Which she is. Or was until very recently.


And now, a song by The Rutles. Look for Neil Innes who plays John Lennon(Ron Nasty) at the Winchester on Madison.

Betsy,

I know what he wrote, I quoted it above, but putting it the way would easily make one think he is making the claim about Kate, or at least trying to make people believe so. The statement was completely unnecessarily otherwise and had no real relevance to the issue at hand. The attack was at Jim despite of the Observer, not in addition to it. The subsequent attack on the Patch and insinuation of false reporting by their writers had no relevance except to be a red herring.

Betsy Voinovich wrote:

Stephen Eisel wrote:I feel like I am watching an episode of the Twighlight Zone...

Hi Stephen,

I agree with you.

I come home last night and check in with the Deck and see a flat-out attack on Jim, and on the Lakewood Observer project that many many of us work so hard on, because there is a picture of the bike rack at the new CVS on the front page, a good picture for the front page, since it’s interesting and new, and rather than saying, “See page 8 inside for story” there's a link (see link "CVS Your Prescription Is Almost Ready"), and the QR code for those smart phone people, to the LO website because there’s no room in the paper. It goes to Jim's post of the same name on the Deck, a post that now has many responses, because that is what the Deck is for.

And this is an example of his “endless ego gratification”? A story about how CVS, using a local architect, has done a pretty good job of putting up a somewhat unpopular project? Jim's printing a picture and posting a link to the Deck so readers can comment themselves on what is going on is “ego gratification”?

Why? Because Jim O’Bryan wrote it and he is the publisher (and one of the founders) of the Observer project? I am one of many volunteer editors for the Lakewood Observer and I can assure you that he is correct about how few stories he has had in print, and the fact that he routinely pushes aside stories written by himself, and Observer regulars to allow more space for new writers and new community news, which is good for the community and good for the Observer because it helps the project grow, and it helps the community because new readers and residents have room to share their information in print. (It ALL goes online.)

Again, where is the “ego gratification”? The Lakewood Observer project is written by the community. Take a look at it page by page if you don’t believe it. Jim is allowed to be part of the community.

We have had stories in the newspaper that were born from threads on the Deck, often we put the QR code to the thread that inspired the story in the paper at the end of the story. We have many posts on the Deck inspired by stories in the paper. Sometimes the author of the story, or a reader, will post an entire story from the newsprint edition (which is online) onto the Deck, so that readers can comment on it. The most recent example I can remember of that is my posting the Amnesty Day story from the library on the Deck to remind people that there was only one more day to turn their books in. The time before that I think I posted the entire Hens in Lakewood story under a thread about attending their meeting that night because I thought it would help provide info about the night’s meeting. A lot of times people just post the portions of stories that they want to comment on.

Any user of the Deck can put any story onto the Deck from the online paper to get a discussion going about it. Sometimes people post stories from the Sun, or correspondence from Councilpeople, all in order to share it with other readers, and to find out what other people think.

There is no evidence of Jim’s “ego gratification.” Or if you are going to level that criticism at this project, I guess you should say it about all of us. Some of us do tend to rant and rave, or at least go on and on (look at the post you are reading this very minute!) and here we have a place to do it.

Later you say that Jim is a bully and beats down any opinion other than his own. Again, this is flat out untrue and again it is an attack on the project, and all of the people who contribute to it. Look at the Deck. Look at the different threads. Look how many people disagree with each other and the rather large number of people who disagree with Jim. It’s true that he pokes at issues, and probes people’s comments to go deeper; he likes to be an Agent Provocateur and in most cases, his “provoking” leads to better and more in depth discussion. And some days he is more reasonable than others. We are all like that. And sometimes it leads to people to calling him a jerk and going away. But those same people can come back at any time and Jim can defend himself at any time.

This is discussion, this is debate, it is great for our community—it enables us to be aware of what is happening, and what other people think, and to share our sometimes competing ideas. This leads to positive change. There are many examples of it, my favorite one, and one of the least controversial, being the “snow summit” that led to “Clear for Kids.” The only problem with that is that it didn’t snow enough this winter to see if it actually worked.

The Lakewood Observer project --and ALL the Observer projects, I think there are nine community papers now-- want EVERYONE to know that they should write for their paper and for the Deck if they have something to share with their community.

We want Deck users to use the printed newspaper, we want newspaper readers to use the Deck. It’s one project, the difference being that we have unlimited space online.

Betsy Voinovich

p.s. Chris, Jim said that WSJ had said that some local Patch editors used questionable practices. He said that Kate Spirgen is a local editor. That's the long and the short of it. He didn't say that she was one of those local editors. He just said that she is a local editor. Which she is. Or was until very recently.


And now, a song by The Rutles. Look for Neil Innes who plays John Lennon(Ron Nasty) at the Winchester on Madison.

If this was FaceBook, then I would definitely "Like" your post..

There really does need to be a like button on the deck!

This quote was from an Atlantic Wire online story, "What We Need For A Local Reporting Renaissance"

[i]"Citizen journalists, after all, are great for pictures and videos, (look at the successful growth of CNN's user-generated site iReport) but for true reporting, citizen journalists thrive best under the management of professional reporters. According to the Poynter Institute, "It's this vision of citizen journalism complementing and adding to professional journalism that is so compelling."
[/i]

Personally, I think LO is great for getting perspective on the news, but to have to wade through three web pages of insults and accusations to get a picture of what's actually happened is an awful lot to ask of a reader. I don't come to LO to find out that GetGo is coming, I come to find out what people feel about it. It's important, but it's not journalism.

Christopher Bindel wrote:There really does need to be a like button on the deck!

Agreed! Give us a like button now, Jimmy!

Matthew John Markling wrote:

Christopher Bindel wrote:There really does need to be a like button on the deck!

Agreed! Give us a like button now, Jimmy!

We always thought it would be more interesting and important to know why someone
liked something. Facebook and others like build on peer pressure, not logic, not
communication. If there is one thing this city has enough of already is baseless peer pressure.

We felt "like" buttons are low bars in communication. "Like" training wheels.

But the truth is, one was added a year ago, and it is still here.

You can "like" a discussion.

.