The Observation Deck

Hi,
Oh my! How embarrassing1 CAN SOMEONE IN POWER PLEASE CORRECT MY TOPIC TITLE? I apologize for the grammar error. It should be,"Can City Council see next fleet of vehicles is electric?"

I missed that.

Thanks,
Don Farris

Donald Farris wrote:Hi,
Oh my! How embarrassing1 CAN SOMEONE IN POWER PLEASE CORRECT MY TOPIC TITLE? I apologize for the grammar error. It should be,"Can City Council see next fleet of vehicles is electric?"

I missed that.

Thanks,
Don Farris

Oh, then let me change my response.

.

stephen davis wrote:

Donald Farris wrote:Hi,
Oh my! How embarrassing1 CAN SOMEONE IN POWER PLEASE CORRECT MY TOPIC TITLE? I apologize for the grammar error. It should be,"Can City Council see next fleet of vehicles is electric?"

I missed that.

Thanks,
Don Farris

Oh, then let me change my response.

.

LOL

Valerie Molinski wrote:

Donald Farris wrote:True, electricity can be made from coal. But it can be made from a number of other sources. Many of those can be green.

Jay Leno has a Volt and I read he drives it everywhere. He said last year he bought 2 tanks of gas.
If we struggle with developing a green solution, lets take baby steps and start with a greener solution. Electric car is greener than a gas one.

As it currently stands, electric cars are not that much greener than a gas one. They are currently only marginally better. You need to look at and factor in more than the energy the car actually uses. You need to think about resources and embodied energy in overall manufacture of the vehicle as well. It takes a tremendous amount of energy to manufacture EV batteries. I agree with you that we need to continue this technology so that it can get better and better. We will eventually be there, I think, but not right now.

True, we can get electricity from other sources. But you are talking about a LOCAL fleet, which would get its energy from First Energy. First Energy's main source is coal burning. They do invest in green energy, but not much. They merely buy it from other producers (at the minimum they are required by federal mandate) and do not currently produce their own. 44107 currently gets over 70% of their electricity from coal derived sources.

If I may add my 2 cents, there is (at least) one other factor to consider, the batteries.

• First, the raw materials needed in the production of these batteries are expensive. China has been buying up the mineral rights for these materials all around the world for some time now.
  
• Second, all batteries eventually die. Replacement battery packs for electric cars run several thousand dollars a piece. For contrast, I've owned my current car, a Honda CR-V, since September of 2003. I very diligently track my gas mileage and costs. I've spent less than $1200 in gas since that time.
  There's always going to be a price involved.
  
• Third, just a couple days ago, Lakewood was hit by several momentary power losses, very likely the result of too many people running their air conditioning. What will it do to the city power grid if you've suddenly introduced a fleet of plug-in electric vehicles to it?

Roy

You bring up so good points, so let's throw in some more.

The technology is improving faster than most people realize. Where electric cars,
photovoltaic cells, and windmills are getting closer and closer to actually being green
when does a city, jump in with investment? One would hope when the romance of the
move diminished by the actual truth of the savings in costs, or carbon footprint. And is
a city is in the middle of budget issues it needs to be for savings not romance.

Some of the gamble can be softened with grants and tax credits and yes even the romance
of turning green. But the gamble is a tough one. If you jumped in on solar panels, you have
lost a ton, as the new stuff is on the market that is 100th the price, and much better in low
light places like Cleveland, London, Seattle, etc. A proper metaphor would be, does a city
invest heavily in 8-track technology, cheaper cleaner cassettes? Beta-Max? VHS? CDs,
Reel to Reel? How many times does a city have to buy the White Album from the Beatles?
If a city is fat with cash, it can afford ever version. However if the city is not cash rich,
it might have to wait till it makes financial sense.

We have not even touched on the real problems currently which is most "green" items
take a larger carbon footprint then they save. So the "green" religion buys into the whole
idea, but the savings are just imaginary. I am not saving "green" is bad or fake, I am just
saying the savings right now rarely adds up to the hype. Still it is noble and a necessary
part of the process to try new technology and help develop new technology, if a city can
afford too. Probably one of the reasons it makes sense for city, and groups to help individuals
invest on smaller levels into the technology, to help test and improve instead of a whole
city or region.


The world's most advanced "mass produced" electric car, the Tesla in Lakewood.


It is based on a Lotus chassis, and I have never read where it is cheaper to run
then the 4 cylinder Toyota powered version.

Or should the city turn to vegetable oil burning diesel? The changeover is being offered by
at least two different groups in Lakewood right now. Or something that runs on methane
or the gases we recover from the water treatment facility?

For Lakewood, right now in 2011 - 2020 it will be where we can save and recoup. Not
sure the city can afford another great cost savings like front yard trash collection!


FWIW


.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:Or should the city turn to vegetable oil burning diesel? The changeover is being offered by
at least two different groups in Lakewood right now. Or something that runs on methane
or the gases we recover from the water treatment facility?

For Lakewood, right now in 2011 - 2020 it will be where we can save and recoup. Not
sure the city can afford another great cost savings like front yard trash collection!


FWIW


.

I wouldn't recommend the vegetable oil diesel option, no matter how much I would enjoy it. The primary source of that oil is...fast food french fry machines. With all the angst about McDonalds...people complaining about the smell...I doubt it would look good for the city vehicles to be putting that same smell out there.

Gas capture for methane is an interesting idea. There are dairy farmers that have become largely energy-independent utilizing the byproducts from their own cows.

I have a thought.
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbusters-dimpled-car-minimyth.html

Mythbuster proved. Dimple the exterior of all the cars. Don't even need to buy new ones.

OR

Build cars backwards.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/porsche-928-more-aerodynamic-going-backward-mythbusters-test-15071-2.html

There are a thousands of things we could do to make cars more aerodynamic, and fuel efficient.
The problem is the car companies are not willing to go that extra mile at this point. Cost would be
to high to manufacturer, and would the public really buy?

.

Hi,
Re: Topic title change - Of course this isn't an issue with a good friend like you Steve. But, me and my family have to be careful. Some petty people misunderstand us and then go on twenty year attacks on us.

I'm guessing the twenty year part, we will need to wait and see.

No sure how everyone elses Lakewood electric grid is but over by me...not so hot. We can't supply the demand on a hot day, how about after our cars are plugged in? Seriously, Tuesday I had to run and unplug major appliances because of a brown out and the electric cut in and out three times. I have never heard a real answer to the grid question except...don't worry it won't happen.