Lingering question from State of the City address

[Jim O'Bryan]

And you also suggest that no matter what we do the outcome will be the same. So with this defeatist attitude, and your obvious feelings of inevitability, logically one would ask you why you feel the need to postpone the unavoidable?

And I would pose this question to you as well, would you argue that all forms of regionalism are bad? Can you see ways in which this would benefit the area?

Thealexa

While not the debater, nor even the person you asked I would like to take a stab at a couple
of these.

All forms of regionalism bad - no, it seems to work in Columbus, where the city has worked
and actually been designed for regionalism. As the city grows in annexes the next
community in line and continues to grow.

In Cuyahoga County regionalism is the only hope for Garfield Heights, East Cleveland, and
possibly Cleveland. When you through into the even larger picture "the dream" it certainly
sounds good. I mean what city would not want to be lumped with other failing cities so
that they would have the same per captia power as say Nigeria? I am sure it is all a dream
we hold dear to our hearts.

But then there is Lakewood, a city that has it all going on. A city that would be much more
solid than it is now, if our leaders had only looked at what we had instead of chasing shiny
objects that either meant very little, or fit Lakewood as well your clothes would look on me!
And this is what is going on. Do we continue the same line of leadership, the kind that
chases personal dreams, or one that is pushing the city forward. Do we chase the dream
some individuals have of being Crocker Park?(If I had said Cracker Park Westlake Observer
would get emails about it), Tremont? Collinwood? Avon Lake? Or god forbid W65th/Gordon
Square*! Or do we sit down and finally look at what has worked here, what attracts
people here, and what makes us better?

The civic leaders on the street, and in city hall seem to be happy chasing trends, and at
times it is like Lakewood has a closet filled with Bay City Roller outfits. Or with restaurants
like Imelda Marcos' shoes closet.

Lakewood, is a great city with a great future. If the economy tanks again, as all signs are
that it will. We have a walkable city, that has nearly everything we need on a day to day
basis. Using our heads, this city can sustain and continue to improve for a long, long time.
Most cities in the region cannot say that. Our diversity in every way, gives us strength,
color, excitement, and a pretty good foundation.

Let's see how things develop. Our first jump into Regionalism got us burned pretty bad.
That would be the agreement, Tom George and the last council approved for sharing
taxes when a business moves from city to another. To my knowledge, we have yet to
even break even on that one, while Cleveland seems to be doing OK from it.

WE would actually loose if Mike Summers was to move his business the 150' into Lakewood
the city were are trying to sell other businesses on moving into. Likewise, if I moved my
businesses to one of the city courting us, Lakewood loses again. Regionalism is a nutshell
we lose if they move here, we lose if they move out. You tell me how it makes sense
for Lakewood?

* ; )

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[Bryan Schwegler]

[
Don't want to worsen your growing hysteria over the idea of regionalism, but whether you like it or not, Lakewood's fate IS already tied to Cleveland.

You think if Cleveland goes down Lakewood will still thrive or even break even?

No, it won't.

This.

Just quoting it again because it's completely, 100%, totally true and it's a fact often lost on all the Cleveland and regional hysteria I often see on the Deck. We are not as separate as you think. Cleveland dies, so do we, so does Westlake, so does Medina, and so does Geauga County.

If we don't start thinking how we improve our core, there's not much hope for the rest. For better or worse, we are tied to Cleveland's success or failure. We are not an island as some would like to believe.

I just don't understand Lakewood sometimes. We try to so hard to point out who we're not (we're not Cleveland, we're not Garfield, we're not as bad as XYZ) that we fail to not only spend that energy focusing on what we are, but we are so afraid of others thinking of us like those places we don't want to be that we shun the idea of any regional cooperation or looking for ways to improve the fate of the entire region because we don't want people to think we're like "them".

[Bryan Schwegler]

[
All forms of regionalism bad - no, it seems to work in Columbus, where the city has worked
and actually been designed for regionalism. As the city grows in annexes the next
community in line and continues to grow.

Just as a point of historical fact, that's exactly how the city of Cleveland grew throughout the entire 18th and early 19th century. Not saying we should continue that trend, but just pointing out Cleveland and Columbus are much more similar on this point than different.

We have a walkable city, that has nearly everything we need on a day to day
basis.

Except enough jobs to sustain the population, let alone enough jobs that pay enough money to let the entire population afford those day to day necessities. That's why the region is important. It's just about Lakewood.

[Bret Callentine]

Let me re-iterate... This was NOT a thread about the theory of regionalism in general, it was a direct question as to whether or not we would be better off as a city in combining more of our city services with those of the surrounding neighborhoods RIGHT NOW.

Regionalism will be as good or as bad as the people who collaboratively run the system.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Bryan

AS I have always maintained and so many people get it wrong. "If Lakewood was in the
middle of Iowa, we would have a pretty good chance of being able to maintain ourselves."
Luckily, we are not. We are in a county and a region desperately trying to find more tin
cups to help bail. We have turned out back on our two biggest industries in Lakewood, and
have actually worked against the top three industries in Lakewood. Hard to be sustainable
when the beast you fight is yourself.

As long as we go with history, then let's throw in that Crocker Park is growing at about the
same pace Lakewood did. Actually Lakewood sprung up faster, but CP is catching up with
the growth. If you go back into our archives, maybe someday they will join the Deck again,
there are some very interesting studies that underline that Cleveland must shed
communities in order to survive.



.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Just quoting it again because it's completely, 100%, totally true and it's a fact often lost on all the Cleveland and regional hysteria I often see on the Deck. We are not as separate as you think. Cleveland dies, so do we, so does Westlake, so does Medina, and so does Geauga County.

Bryan

I do not buy it.

I think another community or area could easily become the next downtown/hub.

Or, is one really needed?

Cleveland is Cleveland because of the manufacturing. IT can reinvent all it wants to but the
new money makers do not need offices, really need very little retail. What they need is
places to live, and buy food, an airport helps, and location.

The longer we hold on to the dream of Cleveland rebounding the farther we get from making
Lakewood whole and strong. If we make Lakewood whole and strong and it comes back
it is a win, win. No matter, Lakewood's future is in Lakewood.

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[Bryan Schwegler]

I do not buy it.

I think another community or area could easily become the next downtown/hub.

Or, is one really needed?

Highly unlikely another would pop up, let alone pretty wasteful considering we already have one here. And even if "Avon" popped up as the new downtown, what do you think that means to Lakewood having this hulking former city that everyone let die right next door?

I mean it's an interesting idea to consider, but it's just not realistic.

And yes, we do need one...

Cleveland is Cleveland because of the manufacturing. IT can reinvent all it wants to but the
new money makers do not need offices, really need very little retail. What they need is
places to live, and buy food, an airport helps, and location.

Cleveland is Cleveland because it took advantage of the boom of the day which was industry and manufacturing, there's nothing saying it can't catch onto the next boom if it has leaders with vision and this entire region stops sniping at each other. Instead of looking at what we can do to improve everyone's prospects, we look at how we can shoot others in the region down or write them off as unnecessary.

As for the famed "internet jobs" where everyone can work from home, tell me where is it? And trust me, I work professionally in the internet space, and let me tell you it doesn't exist and probably never will. We've been waiting for the "paperless office" now for 3 or 4 decades that hasn't happened yet either. The idea of no longer needing workplaces is just this generations paperless office.

The longer we hold on to the dream of Cleveland rebounding the farther we get from making
Lakewood whole and strong. If we make Lakewood whole and strong and it comes back
it is a win, win. No matter, Lakewood's future is in Lakewood.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. Lakewood should continue to try to improve itself, any place should, but it's completely myopic to assume that Lakewood would be anything without a downtown core. Cleveland dies, so do we.

Of course I think we've had this particular discussion a few times and we don't necessarily agree, but I still think you're a great guy with some truly interesting ideas. Lakewood will always have hope as long as we have people with ideas willing to share them and be part of the discussion. If only our actual politicians felt ok doing that more often.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Bryan

Thanks for the kind words, I think the world of you too. I am glad you are on the Deck
and living in this city.

I have often been told, I am not very good at explaining myself. So let me try one more time.

Thought 1 - A city of 50,000 can be self sufficient even without the Lake, parks, or anchor
city if designed to do so.

Thought 2 - We make Lakewood as self sustainable as possible. Then, our proximity to
Cleveland, Avon, Lorain, Detroit, whatever becomes a plus.

Thought 3 - Regionalism, we can afford to wait, and wait and wait.

We are in the region, and we are next to Cleveland. To think otherwise is stupid.

But we do not have to jump in blindly, we have just built great schools, and I think Jeff
Patterson will be able to build on the hard work of Dave Estrop and Joe Maddox. We have
a nice library, and James Crawford I am told has been s perfect choice for the directorship.

We can afford, to see how this works. We do not need to get burned again by a politician
looking for some bullet points on campaign literature.

I am not betting on the County Government, terrible charter, and Ed has to be getting
ready to announce he is running for governor. It will take tens years to sort that act out.

We can do so much better here ourselves, and it is so easy to do.

Why swim upstream?

FWIW

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