The Observation Deck

Tip Three:

Offer guests a seat on the stoop with your Newfie, a cocktail and a cigar

Stephen Calhoun wrote:My point, daff as it is, is that over thirty years of encounters with persons who are inspired by various metaphysical, religious, persuasions, the point of the encounter is to share story and insight. I can divide believers into two groups, (again!), those who care to speak and listen, and those who do not.

As I stated previously, the tact of reaching out through a one-sided monologue is not proselytizing (since no one is actually being converted), but it is in fact a control mechanism for the convertor.

In constructing the "live videos" and both the passive and active confrontations of the public, Pastor Joe lays a path before his own "sheep" - not the public. The choice is for them to take the next step or not. Will they reach the next level of piety and proclaim their convictions by completing the "mission"? This is all under the guise of Christian requirement but his congregation would collapse if it were based on true proselytizing since the track record would be so dismal under these techniques.

No. Pastor Joe would love to debate the rights and wrongs of those who would look at the acts and judge. To him, it is simply the charge of committing these acts that he must fulfill - however he sees fit. God has decreed that live videos and and all manner of public interuption is justified.

And while I would die to defend the right of anyone to worship in freedom, I would worry if my general was claiming orders from God to do so.

Vince,

Will they reach the next level of piety and proclaim their convictions by completing the "mission"?

you mean it's an OP? It's about training missionaries? Unleashing them on something less than the hard cases? Testing the robustness of the program?

It's the MO.

That is what all the "research" points to. They would like the discussion to be about the message.. but it in cases such as this... the medium IS the "massage". The tactics are the techniques. The soldier is the subject.

I think it was plainly stated that there was a group up here from WV to share their "approach" with their Lakewood brethren? Isn't the approach what we're all talking about? If this is the kind of reaction that this approach generates, how could it have survived?

The environment that can foster such a meme as a "confrontational proselytizing group" is rooted in the structure of the group - the motivations of the leaders and the needs/desires of the follower. If the approach was shaped based on the effectiveness of reaching strangers and any type of Christian fellowship, then it would have resembled more of a... uhhh... a friendly conversation over coffee? A helping hand with the yard work? A pick up game of chess? Something that sounds more like "fellowship" and can be found in churches, parks, shops, and skateparks as it is!

Back to my original assertion that many of the followers probably suffered themselves from addiction was just a simple generalization. The really operative term would be "weakness" and that can take many forms. It is a common technique among cults, jihad, hazing, etc. to charge the unintiatied with a "greater goal" at the behest of the leader as part of their "dues" to the group. Greater Good can come in many forms as well, but appealing to the desire to help others is a very crafty one. Look what they did to Tom Cruise!

If I can help someone - then I must be in some position of advantage? This guy is telling me to go out and help these people and that I posess what it takes to do so. With XXXXXX on my side, I can't fail.

What a great thing to feel as a young adult or teenager. Especially if you haven't had much luck finding your way yet. Or if you have had a troubled time dealing with some form of weakness.

I stand by my assertion that when kids are made to proclaim their faith in these cheap, ineffective techniques that it is neither Christian nor Fellowship.

as to no religous leaders responding.. My wife (Shelly Gould Burgess) is a ordained minister, No b.s.

STOSH BURGESS wrote:as to no religous leaders responding.. My wife (Shelly Gould Burgess) is a ordained minister, No b.s.

Stosh

Thanks for speaking up, when I heard NO RELIGIOUS LEADERS were responding I felt slighted myself.


Jim O'Bryan
http://obism.com

Stosh

So in essence, the messengers are the targets of the proselytization ?

Is this akin to the final initiation wherein the leader requires the initiate to undertake an activity to demonstrate their commitment to the cause ? And in this case, the "initiation" is the multi-media evangelical event, and the initate's grade is not based on sucessful conversions, but merely participation in the event.

Jeff

Jeff Endress wrote:So in essence, the messengers are the targets of the proselytization ?

Is this akin to the final initiation wherein the leader requires the initiate to undertake an activity to demonstrate their commitment to the cause ? And in this case, the "initiation" is the multi-media evangelical event, and the initate's grade is not based on sucessful conversions, but merely participation in the event.

That continues to be my take on this. I am Vince but I am sure Stosh is thinking the same thing (back me up stosh!).

Quick story..

A friend of my wife from her old job got wrapped up in the Landmark Forum. It is kind of one of those self-help groups that doesn't even claim to be a religion. She went to some meetings and was very excited about the "help" she was getting. One weekend, she went on one of the 2 day retreats and on sunday evening she had left a voicemail at my wife's desk.

"Hello XXXXX, this is XXXX and I really would like to talk to you about your problem with XXXXX. It would really help me to help you in this matter. Please give me a call back."

I blanked out the names not because it is private, but because it sounded like she was reading from a script and that there were people nearby (undoubtedly farther along in the program) supporting her in this step to self-esteem (or whatever). Her voice was tired and monotone. She feigned some bit of happiness or energy at odd points but we knew her well enough to know she was not quite herself.

One of her other co-workers DID end up going in to a meeting but did not "drink the Kool-Aid". Her description of the content of the meeting was enough to send us all on a massive research in to these groups and other cult-like techniques.

About 10 years ago, my brother was in a similar situation but it was within a Christian-branded group. The "greater good" can change but the techniques are all the same.

I highly doubt that any of the kids involved with this group was some random basketball player/pedestrian/dog walker/tennis player/fire works watcher - that witnessed their entourage a few weeks before and just decided to sign up right there on the spot!

Groups like this are built from the inside out - leveraging personal connections and existing relationships. Hey that sounds like proselytizing!

Sorry Vince....Didn't mean to mistake your post.

Heard a rumor that the Evangelicals will be making an appearance tonight (8/2) at MADISON Park. Not confirmed (and wouldn't know how to confirm it). In the absence of a Skate Park at Madison I wonder where they would present their program....playgound?

Jeff

In the absence of a Skate Park at Madison I wonder where they would present their program....playgound?

Anywhere there are eyes to see and ears to hear!