OK, Threshold Level?
Moderator: Jim O'Bryan
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Justine Cooper
- Posts: 775
- Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:12 am
- Location: Lakewood
The weather "sucks". War is a horror and in this case, like Vietnam, a horror without a reason. People die and destroy families, leaving children without a father (or mother) or in some cases worse, coming home disabled and scarred for life.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive" Dalai Lama
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Bret Callentine
- Posts: 571
- Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:18 pm
- Location: Lakewood
You cannot compare this war to a Civil War that helped free slavery for crying out loud! Or to helping to end the Holocaust!!!!!!
Well I guess if you think that the Civil War was about slavery and WWII about the Holocaust, I can understand how you think this war is for no reason.
I've got two questions for you Justine...
1. Did Iraq sign a peace treaty following the conclusion of the first Gulf War?
2. Did Iraq comply with the requirements of that treaty?
You may not think that military force was called for, but that's quite different from trying to make the argument that there was no reason for it in the first place.
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Justine Cooper
- Posts: 775
- Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:12 am
- Location: Lakewood
Oh we are now going into every country that violated Peace? Better start drafting! Or are we just going into the ones that have oil? Are we now the "Peacemakers" Brett, starting wars to ensure Peace? Please.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive" Dalai Lama
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Justine Cooper
- Posts: 775
- Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:12 am
- Location: Lakewood
The fact that the Civil War was about a lot of issues is common knowledge. The fact that one result impacted the enslaving of human beings though, cannot go unnoticed and was worth fighting for, in my opinion.
The fact that the Holocaust was put to a halt is also, in my opinion, a positive of a brutal war that an atomic bomb was used!
The fact that we haven't learned from past wars is a tragedy. I don't believe we need to engage in them and I also realize there are those that think the only way to get what you want is to engage in war, or to bully. Playing semantics with other wars does not diminish the complete tragedy of the war we are in today. And none of the terrorists came from Iraq so that argument is old. The fact that Bush's friend Hunt is making an oil deal with the Kurds says it all.
The fact that the Holocaust was put to a halt is also, in my opinion, a positive of a brutal war that an atomic bomb was used!
The fact that we haven't learned from past wars is a tragedy. I don't believe we need to engage in them and I also realize there are those that think the only way to get what you want is to engage in war, or to bully. Playing semantics with other wars does not diminish the complete tragedy of the war we are in today. And none of the terrorists came from Iraq so that argument is old. The fact that Bush's friend Hunt is making an oil deal with the Kurds says it all.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive" Dalai Lama
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Bret Callentine
- Posts: 571
- Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:18 pm
- Location: Lakewood
So you DO admit that Iraq violated the terms of their peace agreement?
Isn't that a reason for war?
you don't have to believe that it's a GOOD reason, but perhaps you could at least stop deluding yourself that there was NO REASON at all.
So where exactly do you stand on the utility of force?
War to stop German aggression = good?
War to stop Iraqi aggression = bad?
exactly what does a country have to do to make force justified? Where do you personally draw the line? If you are a pacifist, then how do you even justify WWII or the Civil War?
Isn't that a reason for war?
you don't have to believe that it's a GOOD reason, but perhaps you could at least stop deluding yourself that there was NO REASON at all.
So where exactly do you stand on the utility of force?
War to stop German aggression = good?
War to stop Iraqi aggression = bad?
exactly what does a country have to do to make force justified? Where do you personally draw the line? If you are a pacifist, then how do you even justify WWII or the Civil War?
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Jim DeVito
- Posts: 946
- Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:11 am
- Location: Lakewood, Ohio
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Stephen Eisel
- Posts: 3281
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm
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Stephen Eisel
- Posts: 3281
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm
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ryan costa
- Posts: 2486
- Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:31 pm
anti safety
We are less safe today than before the Iraq war. That is because our victory in Iraq 3 or 4 years ago has proven that weapons of mass destruction don't matter. It has proven that the super jet fighters and bombers and space satellites and armored vehicles don't really matter.
All that really matters in terms of violent threats to the United States are the IED and people willing to use them. The ones that take out a lot of lives make a lot of headlines. The ones knocking out small bridges and utilities over and over again don't make headlines.
There are 12 to 20 million illegal immigrants in the United States. We mostly catch the ones that are harmless or go to work every day. The point is it isn't difficult to get here or spend money here on the hypothetical free market.
Our utilities are spread out over more sparsely populated distances. And we are more used to having them, so it hurts us more to have them upset. And we are the oil addicts. The wealthier someone is or the faster the economic development has been in their "region" in the last few decades, the odds are they drive further to work and over more bridges and highway overpasses. impediments to traffic are demoralizing. Even driving down Lorain or Euclid is a pain the neck. Every time I've driven to CWRU I ended up getting lost for two hours.
they make a big deal of the terrorists praying before the terrorist acts. Most of them aren't particularly pious or religiously zealous. It isn't much different than high school athletes praying before a game. Whether virgins in heaven or sneaking beers and messing around with a hot high school girl after the game. The terrorists can't do that, because then they'd have to stone the girl to death, or marry her.
In conclusion, conquering iraq has made us less safe. Some will our shortcomings there are from not bombing the shit out of Iraq, like we did with germany and japan. But the bombing of germany and japan had a purpose: it was to destroy industrial capacity and heavy weaponry fortifications. We weren't fighting an industrial super power this time. All the crap we were upset with Saddam about happened years ago. He was pushing seventy, and the population was generally integrated and less screwed up than saudi arabias. better to just assasinate his kids and encourage him to build up parliament before he died of old age.
just as having more better trained cops, teachers, lawyers, bureaucrats, hasn't made our cities safer or nicer, so too will go the modern problems of population exploded developing nations and keeping them stable enough to extract resources and outsource manufacturing to them.
All that really matters in terms of violent threats to the United States are the IED and people willing to use them. The ones that take out a lot of lives make a lot of headlines. The ones knocking out small bridges and utilities over and over again don't make headlines.
There are 12 to 20 million illegal immigrants in the United States. We mostly catch the ones that are harmless or go to work every day. The point is it isn't difficult to get here or spend money here on the hypothetical free market.
Our utilities are spread out over more sparsely populated distances. And we are more used to having them, so it hurts us more to have them upset. And we are the oil addicts. The wealthier someone is or the faster the economic development has been in their "region" in the last few decades, the odds are they drive further to work and over more bridges and highway overpasses. impediments to traffic are demoralizing. Even driving down Lorain or Euclid is a pain the neck. Every time I've driven to CWRU I ended up getting lost for two hours.
they make a big deal of the terrorists praying before the terrorist acts. Most of them aren't particularly pious or religiously zealous. It isn't much different than high school athletes praying before a game. Whether virgins in heaven or sneaking beers and messing around with a hot high school girl after the game. The terrorists can't do that, because then they'd have to stone the girl to death, or marry her.
In conclusion, conquering iraq has made us less safe. Some will our shortcomings there are from not bombing the shit out of Iraq, like we did with germany and japan. But the bombing of germany and japan had a purpose: it was to destroy industrial capacity and heavy weaponry fortifications. We weren't fighting an industrial super power this time. All the crap we were upset with Saddam about happened years ago. He was pushing seventy, and the population was generally integrated and less screwed up than saudi arabias. better to just assasinate his kids and encourage him to build up parliament before he died of old age.
just as having more better trained cops, teachers, lawyers, bureaucrats, hasn't made our cities safer or nicer, so too will go the modern problems of population exploded developing nations and keeping them stable enough to extract resources and outsource manufacturing to them.
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Stephen Eisel
- Posts: 3281
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm
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ryan costa
- Posts: 2486
- Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:31 pm
so
The Soviets had been killing millions of their own folks for years before world war II. Belgium killed millions of africans a few decades earlier. Today's warhawks make a case for not intervening in Germany's economic and military revival of the 1930s, but the truth is the other western powers weren't sure whether they'd be fighting germany or the soviets.
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Ivor Karabatkovic
- Posts: 845
- Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 9:45 am
- Contact:
wait wait.
The breaking for UN codes doesn't give anyone a legitimate reason to invade a country.
Shouldn't that be the UN's problem and not ours? yes. But the countries of the UN despise us and do not back us in this war, even though the UN's laws were broken. They think that this war was unnecessary and if you don't agree so wake up.
There has been consistent genocide going on in the world for almost two decades. 15,000 brutal slayings per month and 400,000 between 2003-2005 aren't breaking any laws? Burning villages, HIV/AIDS spreading across the globe and war and unrest don't break any laws? Apparently if something doesn't affect the US at all it's non existent.
This country and it's people have turned selfish, arrogant, blind and numb thanks to leaders that display all of those traits and more.
I spent an hour talking to my friend who is studying abroad in Germany at the moment (he lives in Lakewood and graduated with me) and he said that the Germans fear expressing and having any patriotic thoughts about anything other than soccer because they will be labeled Nazi's.
In a country where you treat your flag better than your people, and your wallets are more important than your family and neighbors, you are labeled patriotic and as heroes. You die hard republicans trample over the hearts and hopes of the globe to gain riches and power for yourself and your growing ego's.
You die hard republicans should be ashamed at your unmoral and unjust thoughts and behaviors. Thanks to your leader, the Constitution is the very thing keeping you sane and believing that this is just and moral. You abuse the very document that keeps this country going and makes it a great place to live in and you don't even realize it.
I can't wait to get the "well, I can stand for my own ground because the constitution and bill of rights entitle me to those beliefs" excuses. And you're right. But the Constitution has become the deciding factor for all of our moral and just behaviors and beliefs.
The Constitution will not make you a better person and will not promise you happiness and a good after life. How can you look in the mirror and be proud that your personal vote contributed to the very mess that the globe is in right now. It's not the world's fault that they hate you, it's yours. It's Bush's fault and you are the one that gave him power. How can you call yourself a "Good Christian" with "Moral Christian Beliefs" when you are not making this world a better place to live in? When you are causing the deaths and suffering of thousands across the globe.
Hide behind your new Bible, The Constitution, like cowards and be proud to be the person who contributes to the murder of millions, the starvation, suffering, poverty and rotting of nations across the globe, just for the sake of your own personal gain.
In the end your bigotry and selfishness will come back to bite you in the behind. Your tax cuts will bring you a fake happiness, and you will have to live with the guilt that millions are starving and dying because you're too selfish to contribute to health care to the neighbors within your own country and to the peace process across the globe.
The breaking for UN codes doesn't give anyone a legitimate reason to invade a country.
Shouldn't that be the UN's problem and not ours? yes. But the countries of the UN despise us and do not back us in this war, even though the UN's laws were broken. They think that this war was unnecessary and if you don't agree so wake up.
There has been consistent genocide going on in the world for almost two decades. 15,000 brutal slayings per month and 400,000 between 2003-2005 aren't breaking any laws? Burning villages, HIV/AIDS spreading across the globe and war and unrest don't break any laws? Apparently if something doesn't affect the US at all it's non existent.
This country and it's people have turned selfish, arrogant, blind and numb thanks to leaders that display all of those traits and more.
I spent an hour talking to my friend who is studying abroad in Germany at the moment (he lives in Lakewood and graduated with me) and he said that the Germans fear expressing and having any patriotic thoughts about anything other than soccer because they will be labeled Nazi's.
In a country where you treat your flag better than your people, and your wallets are more important than your family and neighbors, you are labeled patriotic and as heroes. You die hard republicans trample over the hearts and hopes of the globe to gain riches and power for yourself and your growing ego's.
You die hard republicans should be ashamed at your unmoral and unjust thoughts and behaviors. Thanks to your leader, the Constitution is the very thing keeping you sane and believing that this is just and moral. You abuse the very document that keeps this country going and makes it a great place to live in and you don't even realize it.
I can't wait to get the "well, I can stand for my own ground because the constitution and bill of rights entitle me to those beliefs" excuses. And you're right. But the Constitution has become the deciding factor for all of our moral and just behaviors and beliefs.
The Constitution will not make you a better person and will not promise you happiness and a good after life. How can you look in the mirror and be proud that your personal vote contributed to the very mess that the globe is in right now. It's not the world's fault that they hate you, it's yours. It's Bush's fault and you are the one that gave him power. How can you call yourself a "Good Christian" with "Moral Christian Beliefs" when you are not making this world a better place to live in? When you are causing the deaths and suffering of thousands across the globe.
Hide behind your new Bible, The Constitution, like cowards and be proud to be the person who contributes to the murder of millions, the starvation, suffering, poverty and rotting of nations across the globe, just for the sake of your own personal gain.
In the end your bigotry and selfishness will come back to bite you in the behind. Your tax cuts will bring you a fake happiness, and you will have to live with the guilt that millions are starving and dying because you're too selfish to contribute to health care to the neighbors within your own country and to the peace process across the globe.
"Hey Kiddo....this topic is much more important than your football photos, so deal with it." - Mike Deneen
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Stephen Eisel
- Posts: 3281
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm
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Justine Cooper
- Posts: 775
- Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:12 am
- Location: Lakewood
Great posts Ivor and Ryan! You do really crack me up with your wisdom Ryan!!
Bret,
I am not even sure I call myself a Pacifist to be honest. Maybe I would have been a protester had I been able to at previous wars, maybe not. If I am assaulted, I would fight back. If someone tried to harm my children, I would kill them I think, if it meant protecting them. Do I believe that some of the past wars were unavoidable? Yes. Do I believe that some were unjustifiable (like Vietnam) YES. I don't think I am entirely a Pacifist just for NOT believing in this war, which I have not from day one. It never resonated as anything but wrong, unplanned, and full of lies. I consider it to be the greatest tragedy I have witnessed in my life. And with no clear end. No winners. There is a reason the UN did not join together to do this. It could have, should have been avoided.
Yes I find some positives from the previous wars, but I also think we are, as humans, supposed to learn from the past. What has this country shown that they know or have learned, by charging into a country declaring war, destroying everything we can and then using our contractors to rebuild SOME of it? The internal conflict in Iraq is now greater than it was before, yet one of our President's oil friends is making a deal with ONE of the internal groups fighting. It is so incredulous that there are not even words to express the shame and disgust at reading that kind of information. How can we worry about the UN resolutions other countries defied when some of our country's actions are as questionable? Please justify Cambodia to me. How did those helpless people get bombed from us during Vietnam when they were neutral? oops. our bad.
Bret,
I am not even sure I call myself a Pacifist to be honest. Maybe I would have been a protester had I been able to at previous wars, maybe not. If I am assaulted, I would fight back. If someone tried to harm my children, I would kill them I think, if it meant protecting them. Do I believe that some of the past wars were unavoidable? Yes. Do I believe that some were unjustifiable (like Vietnam) YES. I don't think I am entirely a Pacifist just for NOT believing in this war, which I have not from day one. It never resonated as anything but wrong, unplanned, and full of lies. I consider it to be the greatest tragedy I have witnessed in my life. And with no clear end. No winners. There is a reason the UN did not join together to do this. It could have, should have been avoided.
Yes I find some positives from the previous wars, but I also think we are, as humans, supposed to learn from the past. What has this country shown that they know or have learned, by charging into a country declaring war, destroying everything we can and then using our contractors to rebuild SOME of it? The internal conflict in Iraq is now greater than it was before, yet one of our President's oil friends is making a deal with ONE of the internal groups fighting. It is so incredulous that there are not even words to express the shame and disgust at reading that kind of information. How can we worry about the UN resolutions other countries defied when some of our country's actions are as questionable? Please justify Cambodia to me. How did those helpless people get bombed from us during Vietnam when they were neutral? oops. our bad.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive" Dalai Lama
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Ivor Karabatkovic
- Posts: 845
- Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 9:45 am
- Contact:
Stephen.
Then why aren't we doing more against the bigger infractions?
Oh, that's right, because it doesn't interest the US one bit.
OIL, ahem, Operation Iraqi Liberation, was important because Iraq sent vigilantes over to the US to drive airplanes into buildings right? Saddam Hussein himself wanted the WTC to fall, right?
Check the facts before you believe what you're being fed. Check where these men come from and where the Terrorists run their country. Iraq won't come up at all because it has nothing to do with it.
But it has everything to do with the Oil Business that Bush and Cheney love so much.
Do you also believe that Global Warming doesn't exist since Bush and Cheney hired scientist to say so, or do you believe the rest of the world and leading global scientists who have physical proof that it's actually happening and it will get worse if we don't do something?
Oh and Ryan,
WMD's aren't important? Victory in Iraq? wait what? According to President Bush and Cheney, WMD's are the reason we invaded to begin with. And a victory in Iraq? PLEASE. A victory in WWII meant that troops were home in the same year (1945). Victory means pack your crap and go home because there is nothing more to do, not stay for another 5 or more years.
Then why aren't we doing more against the bigger infractions?
Oh, that's right, because it doesn't interest the US one bit.
OIL, ahem, Operation Iraqi Liberation, was important because Iraq sent vigilantes over to the US to drive airplanes into buildings right? Saddam Hussein himself wanted the WTC to fall, right?
Check the facts before you believe what you're being fed. Check where these men come from and where the Terrorists run their country. Iraq won't come up at all because it has nothing to do with it.
But it has everything to do with the Oil Business that Bush and Cheney love so much.
Do you also believe that Global Warming doesn't exist since Bush and Cheney hired scientist to say so, or do you believe the rest of the world and leading global scientists who have physical proof that it's actually happening and it will get worse if we don't do something?
Oh and Ryan,
We are less safe today than before the Iraq war. That is because our victory in Iraq 3 or 4 years ago has proven that weapons of mass destruction don't matter. It has proven that the super jet fighters and bombers and space satellites and armored vehicles don't really matter.
WMD's aren't important? Victory in Iraq? wait what? According to President Bush and Cheney, WMD's are the reason we invaded to begin with. And a victory in Iraq? PLEASE. A victory in WWII meant that troops were home in the same year (1945). Victory means pack your crap and go home because there is nothing more to do, not stay for another 5 or more years.
"Hey Kiddo....this topic is much more important than your football photos, so deal with it." - Mike Deneen