Thank you Colleen!I don't think Stephen meant it as an attack but as an exchange. It is unfortunate but you are both passionate people.
Hatred on the Lakewood Observation Deck
Moderator: Jim O'Bryan
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Stephen Eisel
- Posts: 3281
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm
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Will Brown
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:56 am
- Location: Lakewood
Perhaps I'm abnormal, but when I see some of these discussions (nothing here rises to the level of debate) deteriorate into name calling, I just attach the name calling to my opinion of the writer; if he, or she, made sense before, but now resorts to incivility, that inclines me to think I was probably wrong in my evaluation of their earlier posting. When, for instance, someone complains about a local problem, and blames the White House, I tend to think they are deranged. In this forum, I would hope we are all intelligent enough to recognize the posters who lack knowledge and reasoning, and ignore them. Unfortunately, they often come in mismatched pairs and neither one will let the other have the last word. If that happens, reasonable people should just stay out of that particular thread and let the idiots exhaust each other.
I participate in some forums that are moderated, but the only level of moderation I tolerate is demanding civil speech; any moderator that blocks a poster because that poster disagrees with another destroys the validity of the discussion, and a policy like that would send me out the door. Also, in a truly moderated forum, your submission has to be reviewed before being posted, which imposes a substantial cost and delay, even if the moderator is a volunteer.
When I was young, in the last millennium, there were political parties and some of the campaigning was more vicious than what we see today, but the people seemed able to look through that to get a feel for the actual candidate. At the same time, people were willing to hold positions that varied from their party line. Today, it seems that we have fabricated a whole list of positions for each group of people, and no one seems to believe that a person could be for civil rights but against abortion, for example. This shows up particularly in the primary election season, where all the Republicans cater to the religious right, and all the Democrats cater to the radically liberal; without doing that, they won't get nominated. Only after they are nominated can they try to appeal to those of us (a huge majority, by my observation) who don't fit in either camp. We see this often in this forum, where a poster who advocates a certain position on only one issue is assumed by some other posters to hold positions on other issues that fit their prejudices.
I do have to vigorously disagree with the posters who say Americans are hated everywhere but at home. I've traveled to many places and have never been told by a native that they hated me. There is a lot of animosity toward some of our government's actions, but the people I have dealt with have been intelligent enough to distinguish between the American people, and the actions of their government. And there is not always disagreement with what our government has done. Knowledgeable Europeans still remember and appreciate our involvement in WWII, and our contributions to restoring Europe after that war. Some Brits I met were actually quite critical that we didn't enter the war soon enough. People around the world, in general and in my opinion, appreciate our immigration policies, flawed as they may have been, which have allowed their relatives an opportunity to prosper here.
I'm no Pollyanna, but I think that if we can get a better foreign policy the apparent hatred will fade.
I participate in some forums that are moderated, but the only level of moderation I tolerate is demanding civil speech; any moderator that blocks a poster because that poster disagrees with another destroys the validity of the discussion, and a policy like that would send me out the door. Also, in a truly moderated forum, your submission has to be reviewed before being posted, which imposes a substantial cost and delay, even if the moderator is a volunteer.
When I was young, in the last millennium, there were political parties and some of the campaigning was more vicious than what we see today, but the people seemed able to look through that to get a feel for the actual candidate. At the same time, people were willing to hold positions that varied from their party line. Today, it seems that we have fabricated a whole list of positions for each group of people, and no one seems to believe that a person could be for civil rights but against abortion, for example. This shows up particularly in the primary election season, where all the Republicans cater to the religious right, and all the Democrats cater to the radically liberal; without doing that, they won't get nominated. Only after they are nominated can they try to appeal to those of us (a huge majority, by my observation) who don't fit in either camp. We see this often in this forum, where a poster who advocates a certain position on only one issue is assumed by some other posters to hold positions on other issues that fit their prejudices.
I do have to vigorously disagree with the posters who say Americans are hated everywhere but at home. I've traveled to many places and have never been told by a native that they hated me. There is a lot of animosity toward some of our government's actions, but the people I have dealt with have been intelligent enough to distinguish between the American people, and the actions of their government. And there is not always disagreement with what our government has done. Knowledgeable Europeans still remember and appreciate our involvement in WWII, and our contributions to restoring Europe after that war. Some Brits I met were actually quite critical that we didn't enter the war soon enough. People around the world, in general and in my opinion, appreciate our immigration policies, flawed as they may have been, which have allowed their relatives an opportunity to prosper here.
I'm no Pollyanna, but I think that if we can get a better foreign policy the apparent hatred will fade.
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Bryan Schwegler
- Posts: 963
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:23 pm
- Location: Lakewood
I have to agree there are some extraordinary posters here, very good people. I don't always agree with them, and I know they don't always agree with me, but I know there hearts are good and their intent is even more positive.
I could list out a slew of names like Gary, Justine, Ryan, etc. The Deck is what it is because of all the personalities here, we are all part of the fabric. If we want to be positive, we have to be positive. We can't leave, otherwise we let those who are negative, resort to personal attacks, and outright nasty behavior win.
The best thing we can do is not engage those people. And when we see that behavior that as a community we may not want to see, we let that person know, we don't allow it to continue unchallenged.
As Ken has discussed many times, it's all about social norms and acceptable behavior. It is just as important in the virtual world as it is in the real one.
I could list out a slew of names like Gary, Justine, Ryan, etc. The Deck is what it is because of all the personalities here, we are all part of the fabric. If we want to be positive, we have to be positive. We can't leave, otherwise we let those who are negative, resort to personal attacks, and outright nasty behavior win.
The best thing we can do is not engage those people. And when we see that behavior that as a community we may not want to see, we let that person know, we don't allow it to continue unchallenged.
As Ken has discussed many times, it's all about social norms and acceptable behavior. It is just as important in the virtual world as it is in the real one.
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Jim DeVito
- Posts: 946
- Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:11 am
- Location: Lakewood, Ohio
Ivor,
Do not leave. You can not bow out of the good fight because a select few have made harsh an uncalled for statements. That is the problem with america. We are all to full of ourselves. Not any one person is gods gift to squat. In the end all the detractors and name callers are just that. All that really matters is how you feel about yourself. That is the one thing nobody can take away and to leave now would be letting ones who want to bring you down win. Shine On Good Man!!
Do not leave. You can not bow out of the good fight because a select few have made harsh an uncalled for statements. That is the problem with america. We are all to full of ourselves. Not any one person is gods gift to squat. In the end all the detractors and name callers are just that. All that really matters is how you feel about yourself. That is the one thing nobody can take away and to leave now would be letting ones who want to bring you down win. Shine On Good Man!!
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Gary Rice
- Posts: 1651
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:59 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Ivor,
It would be convenient, indeed, to blame the problems of the 'Deck on the actions of a few only, but is that really the case?
It was nice of Bryan and Jim to refer to me as being one of the positive people. God knows I try to be, but yes, there are times that we are not always as positive as we perhaps should be.
I was once told a story; that people are like diamonds, having many facets, or sides. Some of our sides are bright and shiny. Some are perhaps, rather bland. All people seem to have at least a few dull and dingy sides, as well.
ANY ONE OF US, given the right circumstances, could probably incite others on the 'Deck, or be incited ourselves.
We all have certain things that we feel strongly about; certain things that we want to defend. Some of us favor limited government, some of us, workers' rights, some of us favored Ed; others, Ryan or Tom. As we saw on the other thread, depending on the point of view with these mortgages, some want to blame the lenders and others the borrowers. We all seem to agree on very little, these days.
I hope that you will take from all the responses on this posting, the fact that one thing that seems to unite us this evening is that we care.
In particular, we care about you.
I really wish, at times, that there was a real "Kumbayahland" out there where Bill Call and I would never disagree. I wish that we could all meet at some restaurant and just laugh it all away, over a great meal. Actually, I did meet a fellow 'Decker with whom I had frequently disagreed. Now we are great friends. Perhaps Bill and I would be, too.
I wish we could put an end to agendas, to fear, to worry, to stress, to reliving the past over and over in our minds...
Call me a hopeless dreamer and a romantic, but the truth is that the world needs dreamers and romantics as much as it does, the pragmatics.
Stick around Ivor, it will all work itself out. At least I hope so. Otherwise some little old atomic mushroom cloud might come along some day and ruin everything for all of us in this opinionated, tired-out world of ours.
As Scripture says "A little child will lead them". Well, you're not very little, but you're a good deal closer to your childhood than most of us are, to our own...
So lead us already...
It would be convenient, indeed, to blame the problems of the 'Deck on the actions of a few only, but is that really the case?
It was nice of Bryan and Jim to refer to me as being one of the positive people. God knows I try to be, but yes, there are times that we are not always as positive as we perhaps should be.
I was once told a story; that people are like diamonds, having many facets, or sides. Some of our sides are bright and shiny. Some are perhaps, rather bland. All people seem to have at least a few dull and dingy sides, as well.
ANY ONE OF US, given the right circumstances, could probably incite others on the 'Deck, or be incited ourselves.
We all have certain things that we feel strongly about; certain things that we want to defend. Some of us favor limited government, some of us, workers' rights, some of us favored Ed; others, Ryan or Tom. As we saw on the other thread, depending on the point of view with these mortgages, some want to blame the lenders and others the borrowers. We all seem to agree on very little, these days.
I hope that you will take from all the responses on this posting, the fact that one thing that seems to unite us this evening is that we care.
In particular, we care about you.
I really wish, at times, that there was a real "Kumbayahland" out there where Bill Call and I would never disagree. I wish that we could all meet at some restaurant and just laugh it all away, over a great meal. Actually, I did meet a fellow 'Decker with whom I had frequently disagreed. Now we are great friends. Perhaps Bill and I would be, too.
I wish we could put an end to agendas, to fear, to worry, to stress, to reliving the past over and over in our minds...
Call me a hopeless dreamer and a romantic, but the truth is that the world needs dreamers and romantics as much as it does, the pragmatics.
Stick around Ivor, it will all work itself out. At least I hope so. Otherwise some little old atomic mushroom cloud might come along some day and ruin everything for all of us in this opinionated, tired-out world of ours.
As Scripture says "A little child will lead them". Well, you're not very little, but you're a good deal closer to your childhood than most of us are, to our own...
So lead us already...
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Bill Call
- Posts: 3319
- Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:10 pm
t
I was just pulling your chain a little bit to illustrate a point.Gary Rice wrote:Department of Education?
Hmmmm....
OK, OK, OK, So some things might take a wee bit more time than others to compromise on.
When liberals talk about compromise what they generally mean is "OK, you don't have to give me what I want this year. We can compromise and spread it out over two or three years".
We are lucky to live in a country where for all the sound and fury discussions about domestic issues are really not a life or death issue. Tax cuts, tax increases, within a certain range the economy still grows, public or private schools the kids still are offered an education, etc.
If you live in Iran, Palestine, Cuba, China or Venezuela you are risking your life when you speak up for liberty. In the USA you just get called selfish, greedy, uncaring, etc.
On the other hand it is the liberal that seeks to stifle dissent and our liberties are being slowing eaten away.
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!
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Gary Rice
- Posts: 1651
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:59 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Bill,
As I've said before, I find much that I agree with in many of your remarks.
While I understand, and would not deny that some liberals can be hard to compromise with, what of some of those right-wing conservatives as well, who preach their way-or-the-highway?
It's been my observation that rabble rousing and hate-speech are sadly not unique to any spectrum of the political world.
Probably due to the internet, it all seems so much more visible today.
When you, Bill Call, put forth an argument, you generally back it up with facts and hard data. While data can sometimes be interpreted in different ways or in different contexts, you sincerely try to put forth a good effort to back up what you say.
Others simply spew it out, and let the chips fall where they may.
On some points, I lean a bit to the left, and on others, I lean a bit to the right. I care very little for pure ideological discussion and debate.
Actually, I believe that there can BE NO ideological debates or discussions, because in such a confrontation, no one wants to listen to the other side anyway, because each side thinks they have it all figured out.
I think of Sarajevo, a city tolerant of others, a city that hosted the Winter Olympic Games in the early '80's...and I see what happened to it when tolerance finally failed.
Either we, as a society, are tolerant, and open to compromise, or the next logical step would be the destruction of the other side, and their point of view. Do people really want to go that far? I sometimes wonder...
Merry Christmas? You bet! Happy Chanukkah too!
Maybe this is a good place to insert this old poem by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:
I heard the bells on Christmas day
Their old familiar carols play,
And wild and sweet the words repeat
Of peace on earth, good will to men.
And thought how, as the day had come,
The belfries of all Christendom
Had rolled along the unbroken song
Of peace on earth, good will to men.
And in despair I bowed my head
“There is no peace on earth,†I said,
“For hate is strong and mocks the song
Of peace on earth, good will to men.â€Â
Then pealed the bells more loud and deep:
“God is not dead, nor doth He sleep;
The wrong shall fail, the right prevail
With peace on earth, good will to men.â€Â
Till ringing, singing on its way
The world revolved from night to day,
A voice, a chime, a chant sublime
Of peace on earth, good will to men.
Have we learned, by now, how to get along any better? I hope so.
As I've said before, I find much that I agree with in many of your remarks.
While I understand, and would not deny that some liberals can be hard to compromise with, what of some of those right-wing conservatives as well, who preach their way-or-the-highway?
It's been my observation that rabble rousing and hate-speech are sadly not unique to any spectrum of the political world.
Probably due to the internet, it all seems so much more visible today.
When you, Bill Call, put forth an argument, you generally back it up with facts and hard data. While data can sometimes be interpreted in different ways or in different contexts, you sincerely try to put forth a good effort to back up what you say.
Others simply spew it out, and let the chips fall where they may.
On some points, I lean a bit to the left, and on others, I lean a bit to the right. I care very little for pure ideological discussion and debate.
Actually, I believe that there can BE NO ideological debates or discussions, because in such a confrontation, no one wants to listen to the other side anyway, because each side thinks they have it all figured out.
I think of Sarajevo, a city tolerant of others, a city that hosted the Winter Olympic Games in the early '80's...and I see what happened to it when tolerance finally failed.
Either we, as a society, are tolerant, and open to compromise, or the next logical step would be the destruction of the other side, and their point of view. Do people really want to go that far? I sometimes wonder...
Merry Christmas? You bet! Happy Chanukkah too!
Maybe this is a good place to insert this old poem by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:
I heard the bells on Christmas day
Their old familiar carols play,
And wild and sweet the words repeat
Of peace on earth, good will to men.
And thought how, as the day had come,
The belfries of all Christendom
Had rolled along the unbroken song
Of peace on earth, good will to men.
And in despair I bowed my head
“There is no peace on earth,†I said,
“For hate is strong and mocks the song
Of peace on earth, good will to men.â€Â
Then pealed the bells more loud and deep:
“God is not dead, nor doth He sleep;
The wrong shall fail, the right prevail
With peace on earth, good will to men.â€Â
Till ringing, singing on its way
The world revolved from night to day,
A voice, a chime, a chant sublime
Of peace on earth, good will to men.
Have we learned, by now, how to get along any better? I hope so.
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Mark Crnolatas
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:32 pm
- Location: Lakewood, Ohio
..
Jumping in on this thread after the fact, I've cut so far back in my postings in the last year or so, especially since our little one was born, more so for a few of the reasons mentioned.
I may be far off here, but in my experience, I have come to the conclusion that in the eyes of the "core-group" of posters, there are things that are better left unsaid, unless one is willing to be potentially verbally hammered.
It's just the nature of the board. I found I cannot say what is actually on my mind all the time, and to just post a stream of thought, unless I first examine what it is I intend to say, and decide if it'll be ok on here or would I be ready for a verbal slug-fest is a must. Apparently some others feel the same.
I was raised that talking politics and religion make for bad bedfellows, yet that is a large part of the real estate on the board.
I've seen it result in arguments among friends in "real world" and arguments on here.
What I wonder, however, is how much does a left vs right or this vs that debate that turns extremely verbally intense plays out on the streets.
In the beginnings of the LO, and before that even, JimOB and I were like "point and counter-point" on the lakewood buzz board. I literally lost nights and nights of sleep over what was posted over there between us.
I expected a fist fight, if we ever met in public. This, however wasn't the case.
When we finally did meet, and each time we've met, has been just a normal ordinary hand-shaking and chat.
That was quite some time ago. With the little one, and other issues, we haven't gone out hardly at all over the last two years, so I've lost touch with the "face to face" meets. I hope we can start going to some again.
So, with that "stream of thought", for whatever it is worth and it's unplanned-ed-ness, I'll join in on some Kumbaya, and hope that we all realize that posted verbal fist-fights don't solve much if anything.
We are all supposed to have one thing in common at least, and that is to help further the quality of our city for ourselves and each other. Key words are "for ourselves AND each other", at least in my eyes.
Cheers,
Mark Allan Crnolatas
I may be far off here, but in my experience, I have come to the conclusion that in the eyes of the "core-group" of posters, there are things that are better left unsaid, unless one is willing to be potentially verbally hammered.
It's just the nature of the board. I found I cannot say what is actually on my mind all the time, and to just post a stream of thought, unless I first examine what it is I intend to say, and decide if it'll be ok on here or would I be ready for a verbal slug-fest is a must. Apparently some others feel the same.
I was raised that talking politics and religion make for bad bedfellows, yet that is a large part of the real estate on the board.
I've seen it result in arguments among friends in "real world" and arguments on here.
What I wonder, however, is how much does a left vs right or this vs that debate that turns extremely verbally intense plays out on the streets.
In the beginnings of the LO, and before that even, JimOB and I were like "point and counter-point" on the lakewood buzz board. I literally lost nights and nights of sleep over what was posted over there between us.
I expected a fist fight, if we ever met in public. This, however wasn't the case.
When we finally did meet, and each time we've met, has been just a normal ordinary hand-shaking and chat.
That was quite some time ago. With the little one, and other issues, we haven't gone out hardly at all over the last two years, so I've lost touch with the "face to face" meets. I hope we can start going to some again.
So, with that "stream of thought", for whatever it is worth and it's unplanned-ed-ness, I'll join in on some Kumbaya, and hope that we all realize that posted verbal fist-fights don't solve much if anything.
We are all supposed to have one thing in common at least, and that is to help further the quality of our city for ourselves and each other. Key words are "for ourselves AND each other", at least in my eyes.
Cheers,
Mark Allan Crnolatas
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Jim O'Bryan
- Posts: 14196
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
Re: ..
Mark Crnolatas wrote: In the beginnings of the LO, and before that even, JimOB and I were like "point and counter-point" on the lakewood buzz board. I literally lost nights and nights of sleep over what was posted over there between us.
I expected a fist fight, if we ever met in public. This, however wasn't the case.
When we finally did meet, and each time we've met, has been just a normal ordinary hand-shaking and chat.
Cheers,
Mark Allan Crnolatas
Mark
I am sorry to hear this, but it made me smile.
A fight?
The truth is, you, Bill Call, Ivor, Ken Warren, and others, no wait all others posting on this board are passionate about what we believe. We are advocates for what we believe. We believe so much in our thoughts and ideas that we assemble in a virtual meeting to discuss and vet our thoughts and ideas.
This is what America, and humans are all about.
The right to openly discuss politics, finance, work, play, home tips, pet tips, and on and on and on. We are living the dream.
I will go one step further, we believe in our thoughts and ideas, so much, so passionately that we are willing to put our names on them. So that a civilized conversation can take place with all the respect for everyone at the table. This was unheard of 5 years ago.
While at times we lose the core concept that all ideas need to be vetted and tested. While those that bring them should be respected for their time and effort. Vet the idea not the person.
Over time we get to know each other both in the virtual world, and the real Lakewood. Another benefit to the way we do business here. There are no fist fights, not attacks, no stalking, no serious BS, because in the end we are all Observers even the lurkers. We are family, and just like a family or community you can't always pick your uncles, aunts, brothers and sisters. I mean we all know how Uncle Bob is. Yet the family continues.
In time, just like friends and families, we learn the buttons to press, we know the hot button topics for the rest of our family, and they are used and often abused. Sad, but not a crime. Like the holidays often the fight erupts for nothing.
A funny side note, I am sure it is no longer a secret we are helping other cities start "Observer" projects. Much of this is based on them coming and watching the site, and getting a feel for what this offers a city. This is why I often underline others watching the board, the success we are having building the brand of Lakewood. After one meeting with a city interested in help, we were relaxing a now fellow Observer asked, "Shawn Juris seems like an intelligent, well thought out person who like economic development. While on the other hand you seem to support keeping the city more residential, would that be correct?" I told him that Shawn was involved in many more projects and committees than I. He is a good man giving a ton of effort to the community. A nice guy with a nice family. But I do fear turning to retail in down-turned retail economies, giving up rental units as the market moves. We both want what is right for Lakewood, we just share different visions sometimes." The guy smiled, and mentioned it was nice to see the views shared publicly, and vetted in the open. They saw that as healthy to a community. Passion, ideas, discussions,a heartbeat that was strong and healthy. Then the woman said from the other side of the table, "Why is he so obsessed with buying pants? And, what are you so obsessed with him not being able to buy them?" It was the funniest thing I had heard in a long time.
However, it does underline how watched this project is from outside. The brand we are building, is that of a true community, a healthy community, a community trying to do better.
Our simple Mission Statement, hammered out by Steve Calhoun, and Ken Warren. "To allow residents to know more about this city then ever before. To be in the Guinness Book of World Records for the city that knew itself the better than any other city."
Mark, punch you? Really?
I love you like a brother, can't wait to see what you have to say until I read it, then... one of a billion emotions take over.
No one should ever take these conversations serious enough to lose sleep, or fear walking anywhere. As we have proven time and again, when we get together there is nothing buy love and admiration for all in the room. In the end we are all Lakewood Observers, we have a tie that binds.
With all discussion boards, I have to think my quote from His Holiness The Dalai Lama sums it up best. "If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad. If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
Thank you to all who take part, and continue to take part. Together I believe we are making a difference, and hopefully the city a little better.
Next Observer Party January 20th, Mahall's Bowling Alley, 3- 7 pm. It would really like to see everyone there.
Advisory Board meeting December 19th, let us know how we can serve you and the city better before then.
peace
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
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marklingm
- Posts: 2202
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:13 pm
- Location: The 'Wood
Re: ..
Well said. And I'm sure many more ideas will be respectfully vetted and tested in 2008.Jim O'Bryan wrote:The right to openly discuss politics, finance, work, play, home tips, pet tips, and on and on and on. We are living the dream.
***
While at times we lose the core concept that all ideas need to be vetted and tested. While those that bring them should be respected for their time and effort. Vet the idea not the person.
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Gary Rice
- Posts: 1651
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:59 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Hmmmm....
Maybe we ARE living in Kumbayahland, after all?
I like so many of the old Quaker expressions and thoughts...
especially those about non-violence and the end of war...
By the way, may I suggest for holiday reading? Mark Twain's "War Prayer"...It carries, at least for me, a powerful message for our time, although, as with just about anyone else, I certainly do not agree with all of his writings.
Twain is said to have not allowed its publication during his lifetime. He supposedly said "Only dead men can tell the truth in this world".
Here's an old thought for the new year, from where exactly, I do not remember, but I believe, from the the Quakers...
That there are three sides to an argument...
Thine, mine, and Truth.
Let us labor for that Truth while we all still are alive, in spite of what old Sam (Mark Twain) might have said...
Now, where did I put that banjo?
Maybe we ARE living in Kumbayahland, after all?
I like so many of the old Quaker expressions and thoughts...
especially those about non-violence and the end of war...
By the way, may I suggest for holiday reading? Mark Twain's "War Prayer"...It carries, at least for me, a powerful message for our time, although, as with just about anyone else, I certainly do not agree with all of his writings.
Twain is said to have not allowed its publication during his lifetime. He supposedly said "Only dead men can tell the truth in this world".
Here's an old thought for the new year, from where exactly, I do not remember, but I believe, from the the Quakers...
That there are three sides to an argument...
Thine, mine, and Truth.
Let us labor for that Truth while we all still are alive, in spite of what old Sam (Mark Twain) might have said...
Now, where did I put that banjo?
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Shawn Juris
- Posts: 69
- Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:33 pm
-
Jim O'Bryan
- Posts: 14196
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
She really wanted you to get your pants, but in North Royalton!Shawn Juris wrote:Aw shucks Jim. Such kind words, I'm nearly speechless.
seriously, you and I have spoken face to face, we actually have a history with friends and relatives. I know this will sound odd to many, but, I can appreciate everything you are trying to do, and not agree with the end, the middle or the how. On many of your projects I agree with all three on others, I shake my head. In the end at least you are trying, and that is what counts at this point in Lakewood's history.
As i saw this pop up again, I was thinking that the word hatred is too strong, at least I hope it is. I think we have massive misunderstandings, mistrust on the Observation Deck. Hate seems strong. We have many people willing to stir the pot, some it would seem for no other reason than to stir it up. Yet in the grand scheme of things I believe it is all good. Open discussion is good, and the vetting is good.
It does trouble me that some, want to take their ball and go home instead of addressing the issues. Let's be honest, I am not going to throw people out for retail. That is because I have not heard a solid enough reason yet. Nothing more, nothing less. But this deck and members in particular have made me change, no open my mind to many things, for that I am grateful beyond words.
I would hope we can all see past the smoke and mirrors and stay focused on making Lakewood better. I also hope we all continue to post how it can be done as you see it. In the end if we cannot talk, converse, or welcome civic discourse, we have nothing, and that would mean nothing worth saving.
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Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
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Scott MacGregor
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 8:48 am
- Location: Lakewood, Ohio
- Contact:
I'm with Ivor as it relates to Mr. Eisel's posts. Eisel is very negative usually, and his comments make it clear where he intends to be in the pecking order should societal laws and morals fall apart as they have in other countries during various times in history and the present.
I get what Ivor is saying and see the line he feels was crossed.
But, I wouldn't drop out of the debate Ivor--your an artist-use your gift to stay involved and work against the fascists.
Screw these people and their flat world theories.
Scott MacGregor
I get what Ivor is saying and see the line he feels was crossed.
But, I wouldn't drop out of the debate Ivor--your an artist-use your gift to stay involved and work against the fascists.
Screw these people and their flat world theories.
Scott MacGregor
Scott MacGregor
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Brian Pedaci
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:17 am
