"Cleveland" will continue to decline as long as "Cleveland" is defined by its current geographic borders. On the other hand if the definition of "Cleveland" is expanded to include Cuyahoga County, or even Lake or Lorain, things can change dramatically.
I know this is a Lakewood board but I wonder about an attitude that is so inwardly-focused it misses the point that Lakewood people work, play,shop, and spend in both Cleveland and Westlake, both Solon and Fairview Park. Work in Cleveland and live in Lakewood and you pay taxes to both. Get on a bus and youre supporting regionalization.
We're ALREADY "regionalized" in so many ways. Why not ones that can make some sense? No one in their right mind would suggest that Lakewood and River operate their own separate bus lines. Why is it such a stretch to think the fire departments could merge?
And one more thing. If Microsoft were to consider sites for a major regional operations center, THEY wouldn't define "Cleveland" as the city.
They would define it as the AREA. (And with apologies to Mr. O'Bryan, their site selectors would find the idea of the same road having two different names depending on the side of the street you were on a little silly)
Ms. Farris correctly pointed out the West Shore vocational district. That came about because the school districts involved realized it was pointless and inefficient to all maintain their own programs. Im sure there are some in Bay Village who think their schools should have their own vocational program but the bottom line is that the West shore program works and offers students more than separate programs could.
I realize this is a long, long, long term project. It may be 50 years or more before there is unified government. but I do beleive it will eventually come about, if only by sheer necessity.
Wow. Sorry for writing so much. Thanks to anyone who plowed through all of my verbiage.
What is it worth? - Very political in nature.
Moderator: Jim O'Bryan
-
Dee Martinez
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:47 am
-
Jim O'Bryan
- Posts: 14196
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
Mayor Tom George
As always thank you for jumping in with an explanation. Many people wonder why I appreciate Mayor George and this is a perfect reason. The mayor knows how I feel about Regionalism. We have spoken of it many times. I am sure he knows that I see all of this as a very slippery slope to nowhereville. Yet he came on the Deck Sunday and explained his comments.
Thank you.
Possibly the only two reasons for Regionalism is bulk buying/cooperation and IF the region is willing to share the Section 8 burden equally. Which I doubt that they are. Look at how the "region"was willing to stop poaching businesses. Those that were getting poached from signed, those that poach did not. Lakewood a city that has built a real brand over the past three years gets caught out. From what I have seen the only thing that came of that was we lost half of the taxes from Pride Of Cleveland to Cleveland. In affect they won, getting an empty store front to fill with another business and half of the tax revenue generated by POC.
While there may be different forms of regionalism, they all lead to the same place. In Cleveland's case, a large downward spiraling malaise of discontent and small thinking.
We have sat next to Cleveland and watched it mismanaged and mismanaged worse. Spending the hard earned pennies and nickles on what? The Rock Hall? The Science Center, The Browns, The Indians, all things we were told will turn the city around. Their latest plan to save Cleveland, "Steelyard Commons" a strip mall. That will certainly close more mom and pop stores than families it will save. Personally I think we should look at the Cleveland as the vast desert to the east. If rumors are to be believed here is what the regional giant thinks of Lakewoodites safety and security. Two patrols cars at night for the First District. This would be the part of Cleveland that wraps around Lakewood. Those police were cut back or moved to the flats to bring Cleveland's crime to acceptable levels(6 murders this weekend). I am sure the police will back me that a great deal of roberries and violent assualts come leaking over the border from the 1st district. Nearly every night we hear of a robbery on the east end of Lakewood and you know it is followed by a footrace back to Cleveland. Thanks good buddy, my plum of a friend, Cleveland.
Even the suburbs that are doing well are doing it by accident not by design. Solon, Independence at the intersection of Freeways, in areas not built out and have given themselves to large commercial parks or areas along the freeway. How long will it be before these two financially solid gems, suffer failure as well?
If we work on building a strong Lakewood, with some strong out of the box thinking, Lakewood can become the exception to the rule. We have the lake, the river, and the Emerald Canyon. None of this changes with regionalization. But we also have the residents, that could drastically change in regionalization. Where does the "art district" go in regionalism? Out the window, Cudell and East Cleveland with bottomed out $500,000 homes for $30,000 will attract artists faster than $600,000 homes for $500,000 or $150,000 homes for $100,000.
Lakewood is perfectly situated to play this one out, and I hope Ken is right, that Lakewood is playing along while we have a seat at the table. We do need a seat at the table if for no other reason that to see first hand the plan that pulls Cleveland down and know how far away we must stand.
If cities need regionalism to buy and work together the system has failed, and the mayors and administrators have failed. We need to find new ways to make cooperation happen without selling out. I do not want Solon helping me pay for Lakewood streets, and I do not want to pay for East Cleveland's police.
Finally if this has been going on and seems like a done deal please let us know, so we can quit wasting out time and money with new schools, and police levies and safety meetings. Because it does not matter. According to some it would be wiser and wait for that Regional gravy train to arrive when we all sit back, and get paid for living in the region. Do we get refunds on the schools? Yeah sure.
One thing I know from friends and going to Columbus and Indy. No matter how successful they may seem to be, there is always a market for people wanting to live outside of the "region." We could be that city. As we have let the rest of the communities whore themselves out with strip malls, while we stayed a bedroom community, we can become the exception to the regional rip tide of failure.
Very frustrated, very frustrated.
Mayor thanks again for jumping into the hottest campaign issue. It would seem that one candidate has not only thought about it, but is working on it, and has answers. Safety talks mean nothing, parks talk mean nothing, school talks mean nothing while regionalism is hanging over our heads.
Safety, anyone can campaign on safety, everyone wants to be safe. Any candidates have opinions or thoughts on Regionalism, please post. Citizens and myself want to know where you stand.
.
As always thank you for jumping in with an explanation. Many people wonder why I appreciate Mayor George and this is a perfect reason. The mayor knows how I feel about Regionalism. We have spoken of it many times. I am sure he knows that I see all of this as a very slippery slope to nowhereville. Yet he came on the Deck Sunday and explained his comments.
Thank you.
Possibly the only two reasons for Regionalism is bulk buying/cooperation and IF the region is willing to share the Section 8 burden equally. Which I doubt that they are. Look at how the "region"was willing to stop poaching businesses. Those that were getting poached from signed, those that poach did not. Lakewood a city that has built a real brand over the past three years gets caught out. From what I have seen the only thing that came of that was we lost half of the taxes from Pride Of Cleveland to Cleveland. In affect they won, getting an empty store front to fill with another business and half of the tax revenue generated by POC.
While there may be different forms of regionalism, they all lead to the same place. In Cleveland's case, a large downward spiraling malaise of discontent and small thinking.
We have sat next to Cleveland and watched it mismanaged and mismanaged worse. Spending the hard earned pennies and nickles on what? The Rock Hall? The Science Center, The Browns, The Indians, all things we were told will turn the city around. Their latest plan to save Cleveland, "Steelyard Commons" a strip mall. That will certainly close more mom and pop stores than families it will save. Personally I think we should look at the Cleveland as the vast desert to the east. If rumors are to be believed here is what the regional giant thinks of Lakewoodites safety and security. Two patrols cars at night for the First District. This would be the part of Cleveland that wraps around Lakewood. Those police were cut back or moved to the flats to bring Cleveland's crime to acceptable levels(6 murders this weekend). I am sure the police will back me that a great deal of roberries and violent assualts come leaking over the border from the 1st district. Nearly every night we hear of a robbery on the east end of Lakewood and you know it is followed by a footrace back to Cleveland. Thanks good buddy, my plum of a friend, Cleveland.
Even the suburbs that are doing well are doing it by accident not by design. Solon, Independence at the intersection of Freeways, in areas not built out and have given themselves to large commercial parks or areas along the freeway. How long will it be before these two financially solid gems, suffer failure as well?
If we work on building a strong Lakewood, with some strong out of the box thinking, Lakewood can become the exception to the rule. We have the lake, the river, and the Emerald Canyon. None of this changes with regionalization. But we also have the residents, that could drastically change in regionalization. Where does the "art district" go in regionalism? Out the window, Cudell and East Cleveland with bottomed out $500,000 homes for $30,000 will attract artists faster than $600,000 homes for $500,000 or $150,000 homes for $100,000.
Lakewood is perfectly situated to play this one out, and I hope Ken is right, that Lakewood is playing along while we have a seat at the table. We do need a seat at the table if for no other reason that to see first hand the plan that pulls Cleveland down and know how far away we must stand.
If cities need regionalism to buy and work together the system has failed, and the mayors and administrators have failed. We need to find new ways to make cooperation happen without selling out. I do not want Solon helping me pay for Lakewood streets, and I do not want to pay for East Cleveland's police.
Finally if this has been going on and seems like a done deal please let us know, so we can quit wasting out time and money with new schools, and police levies and safety meetings. Because it does not matter. According to some it would be wiser and wait for that Regional gravy train to arrive when we all sit back, and get paid for living in the region. Do we get refunds on the schools? Yeah sure.
One thing I know from friends and going to Columbus and Indy. No matter how successful they may seem to be, there is always a market for people wanting to live outside of the "region." We could be that city. As we have let the rest of the communities whore themselves out with strip malls, while we stayed a bedroom community, we can become the exception to the regional rip tide of failure.
Very frustrated, very frustrated.
Mayor thanks again for jumping into the hottest campaign issue. It would seem that one candidate has not only thought about it, but is working on it, and has answers. Safety talks mean nothing, parks talk mean nothing, school talks mean nothing while regionalism is hanging over our heads.
Safety, anyone can campaign on safety, everyone wants to be safe. Any candidates have opinions or thoughts on Regionalism, please post. Citizens and myself want to know where you stand.
.
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
-
Joe Ott
- Posts: 216
- Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:59 am
- Location: Lakewood
Re: What is it worth? - Very political in nature.
No relation...Jim O'Bryan wrote:Plain Dealer story this morning by Thomas Ott,
.
-
Jeff Endress
- Posts: 858
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:13 am
- Location: Lakewood
Bill
Back on subject. Make no mistake about it. When the PD, Sam Miller and the big Foundations talk of regionalization, they are speaking of a reallocation of the suburban tax base to prop up Cleveland. They are talking of a Revenue sharing. Think about it for a moment. Remove from your assessment the unproven promises of tax savings through the magical power of economies of scale. As suburban resources are used to enhance the falling tax receipts of the core city, exactly how will that either lower our tax burden or enhance our services? The true aim of regionalization siphon off the suburban tax base. That huge sucking sound you will hear is our tax dollars going into Cleveland to repair its infrastructure, schools and maintain its ridiculously overloaded bureaucracy.
Never confuse with regionalization discussion with a discussion of sharing programs, ala the sewer district. In many instances, sharing resources, consolidating services, and co-operative purchasing makes a great deal of sense. And in many of those areas we already have a high degree of co-operation. Westshore vocational (which, by the way, is one of the reason that Lakewood schools appear to test low....we take all of the cast-offs and do the job that no other school system is willing to do), co-operative fire agreements, and so forth. That type of logical co-operation make a good deal of sense.
The Miller/PD/ Foundation bogeyman is the promise that as Cleveland sinks, we'll all sink with it. All the suburbs must ban together, tighten our belts, prop up our core city and then, through the magic of economies of scale, a vibrant economic engine will emerge and together we will all prosper like never before. And, to a large degree, it is a self fulfilling prophecy, as the advocates of regionalization continue to actively gut the core city and force the decay outward, like ripples in a pond.
Maybe it could work. Maybe by sharing revenues with Westlake and Pepper Pike a new gleaming light on the shores of Lake Erie will emerge. But, while we're waiting for that miracle to happen, I'd like to know a couple of things:
If we're not happy about the condition of our Lakewood Parks, how will regionalization improve them when clearly an allocation of the assets needed would go to Parks in far worse condition....
Who will be using the assets that we, as Lakewood taxpayers, are funding...the new schools, the new Library while we continue to pay for these city assets that become part of the regional system?
If we're unhappy about law enforcement unable to curb jaywalking and rowdy youths, how will a consolidation of safety forces improve that situation when there are other areas where there are much more critical issue of gang turf wars and drive by shootings?
If we're concerned about potholes and street conditions how will this consolidation provide us with a better street improvement program when the core city streets are in greater need of attention?
If you're concerned with the responsiveness of our city bureaucracy, will this regional approach give us greater accountability from the gleaming new half billion dollar tower that may one day grace the corner of Euclid and 9th?
Given the insatiable need for funds to fix what is wrong with Cleveland, exactly how will regionalization REDUCE our tax burden, while at the same time enhancing and maintaining our services?
And please, don't tell me that in 60 years, when that gleaming new Metropolis graces the Lake Erie shores that there will be money and tax abatements for all. I won't be around to see it happen. I doubt that any of us would ever see it happen.
Jeff
Absolutely not. Every city should be required to critically analyze how their resources are allocated. Sometimes, you and I disagree in our analysis, but I would never disagree about the need that it be undertaken....Is Lakewood exempt from that kind of critical thinking?
Back on subject. Make no mistake about it. When the PD, Sam Miller and the big Foundations talk of regionalization, they are speaking of a reallocation of the suburban tax base to prop up Cleveland. They are talking of a Revenue sharing. Think about it for a moment. Remove from your assessment the unproven promises of tax savings through the magical power of economies of scale. As suburban resources are used to enhance the falling tax receipts of the core city, exactly how will that either lower our tax burden or enhance our services? The true aim of regionalization siphon off the suburban tax base. That huge sucking sound you will hear is our tax dollars going into Cleveland to repair its infrastructure, schools and maintain its ridiculously overloaded bureaucracy.
Never confuse with regionalization discussion with a discussion of sharing programs, ala the sewer district. In many instances, sharing resources, consolidating services, and co-operative purchasing makes a great deal of sense. And in many of those areas we already have a high degree of co-operation. Westshore vocational (which, by the way, is one of the reason that Lakewood schools appear to test low....we take all of the cast-offs and do the job that no other school system is willing to do), co-operative fire agreements, and so forth. That type of logical co-operation make a good deal of sense.
The Miller/PD/ Foundation bogeyman is the promise that as Cleveland sinks, we'll all sink with it. All the suburbs must ban together, tighten our belts, prop up our core city and then, through the magic of economies of scale, a vibrant economic engine will emerge and together we will all prosper like never before. And, to a large degree, it is a self fulfilling prophecy, as the advocates of regionalization continue to actively gut the core city and force the decay outward, like ripples in a pond.
Maybe it could work. Maybe by sharing revenues with Westlake and Pepper Pike a new gleaming light on the shores of Lake Erie will emerge. But, while we're waiting for that miracle to happen, I'd like to know a couple of things:
If we're not happy about the condition of our Lakewood Parks, how will regionalization improve them when clearly an allocation of the assets needed would go to Parks in far worse condition....
Who will be using the assets that we, as Lakewood taxpayers, are funding...the new schools, the new Library while we continue to pay for these city assets that become part of the regional system?
If we're unhappy about law enforcement unable to curb jaywalking and rowdy youths, how will a consolidation of safety forces improve that situation when there are other areas where there are much more critical issue of gang turf wars and drive by shootings?
If we're concerned about potholes and street conditions how will this consolidation provide us with a better street improvement program when the core city streets are in greater need of attention?
If you're concerned with the responsiveness of our city bureaucracy, will this regional approach give us greater accountability from the gleaming new half billion dollar tower that may one day grace the corner of Euclid and 9th?
Given the insatiable need for funds to fix what is wrong with Cleveland, exactly how will regionalization REDUCE our tax burden, while at the same time enhancing and maintaining our services?
And please, don't tell me that in 60 years, when that gleaming new Metropolis graces the Lake Erie shores that there will be money and tax abatements for all. I won't be around to see it happen. I doubt that any of us would ever see it happen.
Jeff
To wander this country and this world looking for the best barbecue â€â€
-
David Anderson
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:41 pm
I can't add much, if anything, to this thread save for one observation which I am sure everyone realizes -
For the most part, everyone who has the means to do so has left Cleveland. Most neighborhoods are difficult places to grow up, live safely as a family and succeed in school.
With Lakewood's population also in decline, people are rightly concerned over quality of life, the ability to live and raise a family in a safe environment, property values and return on the tax dollar issues.
A mayoral candidate walked and talked my street last night and engaged my neighbors – mid 30’s, married, two young children (I wasn't home). My neighbors now feel that Mayor George isn't doing anything about the great increase of gang violence in Lakewood, the City’s great increase in overall crime and the relationship to Section 8 tenants and other renters.
For the most part, everyone who has the means to do so has left Cleveland. Most neighborhoods are difficult places to grow up, live safely as a family and succeed in school.
With Lakewood's population also in decline, people are rightly concerned over quality of life, the ability to live and raise a family in a safe environment, property values and return on the tax dollar issues.
A mayoral candidate walked and talked my street last night and engaged my neighbors – mid 30’s, married, two young children (I wasn't home). My neighbors now feel that Mayor George isn't doing anything about the great increase of gang violence in Lakewood, the City’s great increase in overall crime and the relationship to Section 8 tenants and other renters.
-
Robert Overman
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:24 pm
This may make snese, it may not
Growing up in one of the suburbs of Columbus (I grew up in Hilliard), we were put into a very different situation than Lakewood has been in a long time. I grew up on a road that included nothing but a gas station, a motel, and a restaurant when we moved there in '87. When I left for college in 2000, there were more things than i would like to count, and now anything you could ever want and more. The thing is we had more farm land than we ever knew what to do with, and we could expand like it was going out of style. But this being said with all of the land we could want for anything we still had problems. I remember in high school when we were working with the city speaking more and more about how our tax revenues were not making due and how other suburbs were able to attract better businesses. I make this point to say that although our outer/inner ring has made strides in Columbus it is by no means a fixed idea.
With this I am not advocating that we go around bulldozing half of Lakewood to build businesses either, I'm just saying that Columbus is a completely different cup of tea.
My last point i guess is more so a question, how is it that we are even speaking with the eastern suburbs about regionalization, I understand putting together a government entity, but we could not share resources in my mind (such as fire, police, schools), because of geographical differences. Possibly I am just confused with this whole idea of regionalization, but i could use some clarification.
With this I am not advocating that we go around bulldozing half of Lakewood to build businesses either, I'm just saying that Columbus is a completely different cup of tea.
My last point i guess is more so a question, how is it that we are even speaking with the eastern suburbs about regionalization, I understand putting together a government entity, but we could not share resources in my mind (such as fire, police, schools), because of geographical differences. Possibly I am just confused with this whole idea of regionalization, but i could use some clarification.
-
Jim O'Bryan
- Posts: 14196
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
DavidDavid Anderson wrote:My neighbors now feel that Mayor George isn't doing anything about the great increase of gang violence in Lakewood, the City’s great increase in overall crime and the relationship to Section 8 tenants and other renters.
Great increase in gang violence?!
Robert
The definition of Regionalism is whatever you want it to be to get past the voter.
The end result is Buffalo.
.
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
-
David Anderson
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:41 pm
-
Dee Martinez
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:47 am
As they say, you are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts.Jim O'Bryan wrote:David Anderson wrote:My neighbors now feel that Mayor George isn't doing anything about the great increase of gang violence in Lakewood, the City’s great increase in overall crime and the relationship to Section 8 tenants and other renters.
The definition of Regionalism is whatever you want it to be to get past the voter.
The end result is Buffalo.
.
Erie County NY has 45 separate municipalities with almost 450 elected officials. If there is regionalism in Buffalo youd be hard pressed to prove it.
Regionalism was an idea floated there but never got off the ground in any concrete sense.
I know this is probably the worst venue in the world to discuss the concept but at least we can get our facts straight.
-
Jim O'Bryan
- Posts: 14196
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
-
Justine Cooper
- Posts: 775
- Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:12 am
- Location: Lakewood
Dee,
This is not the worst place in the world to discuss it. Even though I don't agree with Regionalism, from the very little that I know, I totally appreciate your contribution as well as Jim's and Jeff's and Dan's and Ken's and all the others. I truly learn more from this deck than any one news source. I do want to hear both sides so my opinion can be better formed so thank you.
This is not the worst place in the world to discuss it. Even though I don't agree with Regionalism, from the very little that I know, I totally appreciate your contribution as well as Jim's and Jeff's and Dan's and Ken's and all the others. I truly learn more from this deck than any one news source. I do want to hear both sides so my opinion can be better formed so thank you.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive" Dalai Lama
-
Jim O'Bryan
- Posts: 14196
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
Dee
I agree with Justine, this is the place to discuss it. Everyone running for office is a member thought only the Mayor has an opinion.
If you think the idea is out numbered look at the member list it is made up of many of the movers and shakers in town and another 700 people.
This is about as fair as it gets.
This is a huge topic in Lakewood and to think only one of the 15 people running or holding public office has jumped in really disappoints me.
FWIW
I agree with Justine, this is the place to discuss it. Everyone running for office is a member thought only the Mayor has an opinion.
If you think the idea is out numbered look at the member list it is made up of many of the movers and shakers in town and another 700 people.
This is about as fair as it gets.
This is a huge topic in Lakewood and to think only one of the 15 people running or holding public office has jumped in really disappoints me.
FWIW
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
-
Dan Shields
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:16 am
- Location: Lakewood, Ohio
-
Jim O'Bryan
- Posts: 14196
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
DanDan Shields wrote:Jim, Could you doublecheck that last statement? ThanksJim O'Bryan wrote:Dee
This is a huge topic in Lakewood and to think only one of the 15 people running or holding public office has jumped in really disappoints me.
FWIW
Dan Shields
We will know Thursday, it might be more, maybe less.
Or are you questioning the actual regionalization?
Dare I think that maybe European countries got some say when their country signed on to the Euro, and everything that came with it.
If we decide to go regional many of the subjects we are speaking of will be moot. Hire 30 new police for Lakewood, or 300 for the region and Lakewood gets a couple?
Why fix our roads? Won't our roads be fixed while we get the big check in savings back to us?
Do we get rebate checks on schools and library?
In the best case scenario for Regionalization on a grand scale, Lakewood can do better without it?
Dan where do you stand?
Thanks for jumping in.
.
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama