Why would anyone think an Applebees on Detroit and Rockway would be a success? There is a brand new one two miles away at Westgate. Besides, the restaurant business has been hurting with the slump in the economy and if gas hits $3 this summer, as they are predicting, I suspect dining out and other discretionary spending will decrease further. I wouldn't invest my money in that scheme.
BTW, Cecil Yates is a developer? I thought he was the bar manager at that bar by Dairy Queen? What is he?
Beck Center movement: NOT a rumor!
Moderator: Jim O'Bryan
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Grace O'Malley
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Jim O'Bryan
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Grace O'Malley wrote:Why would anyone think an Applebees on Detroit and Rockway would be a success? There is a brand new one two miles away at Westgate. Besides, the restaurant business has been hurting with the slump in the economy and if gas hits $3 this summer, as they are predicting, I suspect dining out and other discretionary spending will decrease further. I wouldn't invest my money in that scheme.
BTW, Cecil Yates is a developer? I thought he was the bar manager at that bar by Dairy Queen? What is he?
Grace
Cecil has done a couple small developments, most of them pretty nice. I like Cecil, but always questioned this one. It would find a business district diving deep into residential areas. What would the fall out be on West Clifton, Wayne, Rockway etc.?
The actual plan had the Beck moving backwards, not leaving. But from Mike's article it would seem that he might have talked of them moving.
My single biggest problems with developers is, by nature they must develop.
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Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
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Grace O'Malley
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I see that Cecil Yates is a member of Lakewood Alive. Are they aware of, and in favor of, Mr Yates "putting the bug in Beck's ear" to move out of Lakewood?
Doesn't seem to me that a long-standing and well-regarded arts institution leaving our city in any way bodes well, if even in public perception of the move.
Doesn't seem to me that a long-standing and well-regarded arts institution leaving our city in any way bodes well, if even in public perception of the move.
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Jim O'Bryan
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Grace O'Malley wrote:I see that Cecil Yates is a member of Lakewood Alive. Are they aware of, and in favor of, Mr Yates "putting the bug in Beck's ear" to move out of Lakewood?
Doesn't seem to me that a long-standing and well-regarded arts institution leaving our city in any way bodes well, if even in public perception of the move.
Grace
First, we do not know for a fact that Cecil put the bug in their ear. It would just seem that from Mike Gill's column, that he might have been.
I go back to developers must develop. Where you and I see a field, they see a mall. Where you and I see doubles, they see singles, where you and I see families, they see strip malls.
I have seen a bunch of plans for Lakewood, and I have only seen one that I would give a 10 to, and that plan has been largely ignored. All the others with the exception of the Cliffs, and Rosewood seem to fall way short of any common sense or logic.
Developers look at things and think they need to be developed or redeveloped. It is a mindset. Like Economic Development. It becomes a mindset and if a little ED is good, a ton much be better. But I have often wondered if the entire city has been looked at.
One thing I get a kick out of is the thought that ED will reduce our taxes! The city needs every penny it can lay hands on. I cannot see any come back in the form of checks. Better service maybe, more police maybe, a check? never.
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Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
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Grace O'Malley
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Jim O'Bryan
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Ken
Raises some very interesting thoughts.
Would I trade the Beck Center for a Bob Stark office, I hate to say it but yes. Beck could go to Crocker(10 minutes away) and we would enjoy all the same things with the exception of convience. While getting a solid tax payer.
But change that office building with a strip mall and I get a little edgey.
An office brings in bodies, families, and residents and the tax revenue that comes with it. As we know from the Grow Lakewood study, our future is in residents and offices NOT retail.
.
Raises some very interesting thoughts.
Would I trade the Beck Center for a Bob Stark office, I hate to say it but yes. Beck could go to Crocker(10 minutes away) and we would enjoy all the same things with the exception of convience. While getting a solid tax payer.
But change that office building with a strip mall and I get a little edgey.
An office brings in bodies, families, and residents and the tax revenue that comes with it. As we know from the Grow Lakewood study, our future is in residents and offices NOT retail.
.
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
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ryan costa
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nice
a liquor license would help. I'd enjoy seeing theatre and show choir performances much more with a glass of wine in hand.
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Jeff Endress
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- Location: Lakewood
The Beck has been a Lakewood institution for as long as I can remember. It has been an asset to the community, providing a firm “fine arts†presence for the city. It has also seen its share of financial difficulties in recent years, which may well be indicative of the erosion of a supporting base, as discussed by Ken Warren. It is unrealistic to expect the city to provide financial support in the current climate. The monies simply are not available. Given the financial pressures, I think we can safely assume that the rumor of a move is much more than rumor; it is probably a done deal, and the architect’s plans for the new Westlake location are already on Stark’s desk. I also submit, that there is precious little to be accomplished in a discussion of how the Beck might be saved. That discussion, whether it involved liquor licenses, marketing or fund raising needed to take place years ago. Years ago, we lost the Great Lakes Shakespeare Festival when it left its Civic Auditorium birthplace. It is always a blow to the pride of a community when it loses one of the institutions in which it has no real ownership, but which is claimed as a community “asset†(the loss of a professional sports team might be a good example).
Will the Beck be missed? Absolutely. Does the loss of a fine arts center impact on the perception of Lakewood? Without question. But, at this moment in time, I think we need to accept that the Westlake relocation is going to happen, and focus our efforts, not on an unproductive discussion on how the Beck might be saved, but rather on what we want in its place.
As homeowners, many of us have looked towards residential improvements and expansion. We do our research, plan out the addition, new kitchen or other project. Then we seek out builders or trades people to bring our residential vision to fruition. But, an entirely different scenario plays out when expansion or development occurs in the city which we “ownâ€Â.
A developer creates a vision and approaches our city representatives and sells them on the project they have designed. In the same way that advertising attempts to build a feeling of need for that new gas guzzler, the builder markets his vision, attempting to get traction for it and create a “need†for what he wishes to provide. I would submit that this reactive approach is backwards, and leaves us with such jewels as Detroit avenue fast food restaurants.
As “owners†of Lakewood, we need to approach a replacement for the Beck as we would an addition to our homes. We need to develop a plan and vision and then seek out a developer who can work with us to bring that vision to reality. Until and unless the citizen “owners†of Lakewood know what they want, what fits into our civic vision and our (still developing) long range plan, we will continue to be reactive as a developer tries to convince us that an Appleby’s would be a swell replacement for the Beck and Amory.
I would much prefer that there is a rough vision (such as the Peninsula) and we allow a developer to work within the confines we set forth, in a cooperative fashion, to give us what we want, not what they convince us we need. So, assume the Beck is a done deal. Let’s get to work and direct our efforts into reaching some consensus about what should replace it.
Jeff
Will the Beck be missed? Absolutely. Does the loss of a fine arts center impact on the perception of Lakewood? Without question. But, at this moment in time, I think we need to accept that the Westlake relocation is going to happen, and focus our efforts, not on an unproductive discussion on how the Beck might be saved, but rather on what we want in its place.
As homeowners, many of us have looked towards residential improvements and expansion. We do our research, plan out the addition, new kitchen or other project. Then we seek out builders or trades people to bring our residential vision to fruition. But, an entirely different scenario plays out when expansion or development occurs in the city which we “ownâ€Â.
A developer creates a vision and approaches our city representatives and sells them on the project they have designed. In the same way that advertising attempts to build a feeling of need for that new gas guzzler, the builder markets his vision, attempting to get traction for it and create a “need†for what he wishes to provide. I would submit that this reactive approach is backwards, and leaves us with such jewels as Detroit avenue fast food restaurants.
As “owners†of Lakewood, we need to approach a replacement for the Beck as we would an addition to our homes. We need to develop a plan and vision and then seek out a developer who can work with us to bring that vision to reality. Until and unless the citizen “owners†of Lakewood know what they want, what fits into our civic vision and our (still developing) long range plan, we will continue to be reactive as a developer tries to convince us that an Appleby’s would be a swell replacement for the Beck and Amory.
I would much prefer that there is a rough vision (such as the Peninsula) and we allow a developer to work within the confines we set forth, in a cooperative fashion, to give us what we want, not what they convince us we need. So, assume the Beck is a done deal. Let’s get to work and direct our efforts into reaching some consensus about what should replace it.
Jeff
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Tim Liston
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Back to a sore subject.......
The relocation of Beck to Crocker Park is made possible because most of the cost of automotive transportation is paid by taxpayers and not by those who enjoy it. Taxpayers have bankrolled the buildout of exurbia by building the necessary infrastructure, and by paying the costs of keeping Middle East oil flowing to the U.S. So Westlake thrives while Cleveland and its inner-ring suburbs suffer.
I've written about this before. If the costs of motoring were borne by the motorists and not by the taxpayers, Lakewood would be thriving and Crocker Park would not exist. I find it ironic but unfortunately not surprising that the vast majority of Lakewood residents cringe at the thought of a gasoline tax. Well I guess this is a case of “you better be careful what you don't wish for, you might not get it......â€Â. Until we stop our motoring fiesta more inner-ring assets are gonna move to exurbia (and more American soldiers are gonna get their heads chopped off).
I find it appalling that Beck is moving from a place to which perhaps 50,000 people can walk or bike, to a place where practically nobody can. And this is what we call “progressâ€Â........
The relocation of Beck to Crocker Park is made possible because most of the cost of automotive transportation is paid by taxpayers and not by those who enjoy it. Taxpayers have bankrolled the buildout of exurbia by building the necessary infrastructure, and by paying the costs of keeping Middle East oil flowing to the U.S. So Westlake thrives while Cleveland and its inner-ring suburbs suffer.
I've written about this before. If the costs of motoring were borne by the motorists and not by the taxpayers, Lakewood would be thriving and Crocker Park would not exist. I find it ironic but unfortunately not surprising that the vast majority of Lakewood residents cringe at the thought of a gasoline tax. Well I guess this is a case of “you better be careful what you don't wish for, you might not get it......â€Â. Until we stop our motoring fiesta more inner-ring assets are gonna move to exurbia (and more American soldiers are gonna get their heads chopped off).
I find it appalling that Beck is moving from a place to which perhaps 50,000 people can walk or bike, to a place where practically nobody can. And this is what we call “progressâ€Â........
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Charyn Varkonyi
50k people that CAN walk does not necessarily mean that there are 50k people that WILL walk.
If the Beck was doing a tremendous business in town they would not be easily tempted by a carrot dangled in front of them and they would have a plethora of known public and private sources of support.
From what I can glean, that is not the case.
They are not operating at capacity and they are not flush with potential saviors.
Perhaps THAT is the larger question that would need to be answered:
"Why was the Beck center not operating at capacity and placed in a position to entertain other options?"
Is it civic disinterest? Then why is Lakewood disinterested? Poor promotion of events and services? Pricing? or an indication that the 50k that live here are not that interested and would better served by something else?
The entire membership of this board represents only eight tenths of s percent of the population - perhaps the remaining 99.2% have other ideas? (please dont flame - I am just trying to toss some ideas to think about....)
Is it lack of private funding? If so then why? Are Lakewood citizens unaware of the need? Are they disinclined to provide support? Are they feeling "donation fatigue"? Are they unable to provide support?
What are the drivers? Because if we cant answer these questions we will be losing more than the Beck.
To address Jeff's idea of looking forward (probably a prudent idea at that)... in my happy place I would love to see a mid-size grocery chain there. We are losing Giant Eagle so there should be ample opportunity for sales and it would be wonderful if we could actually have one near the West End, but still in Lakewood.
Perhaps that Trader Joe's everyone is talking about - but I am being admittedly selfish ...
Peace,
~Charyn
If the Beck was doing a tremendous business in town they would not be easily tempted by a carrot dangled in front of them and they would have a plethora of known public and private sources of support.
From what I can glean, that is not the case.
They are not operating at capacity and they are not flush with potential saviors.
Perhaps THAT is the larger question that would need to be answered:
"Why was the Beck center not operating at capacity and placed in a position to entertain other options?"
Is it civic disinterest? Then why is Lakewood disinterested? Poor promotion of events and services? Pricing? or an indication that the 50k that live here are not that interested and would better served by something else?
The entire membership of this board represents only eight tenths of s percent of the population - perhaps the remaining 99.2% have other ideas? (please dont flame - I am just trying to toss some ideas to think about....)
Is it lack of private funding? If so then why? Are Lakewood citizens unaware of the need? Are they disinclined to provide support? Are they feeling "donation fatigue"? Are they unable to provide support?
What are the drivers? Because if we cant answer these questions we will be losing more than the Beck.
To address Jeff's idea of looking forward (probably a prudent idea at that)... in my happy place I would love to see a mid-size grocery chain there. We are losing Giant Eagle so there should be ample opportunity for sales and it would be wonderful if we could actually have one near the West End, but still in Lakewood.
Perhaps that Trader Joe's everyone is talking about - but I am being admittedly selfish ...
Peace,
~Charyn
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Joan Roberts
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Tim Liston wrote:
I find it appalling that Beck is moving from a place to which perhaps 50,000 people can walk or bike, to a place where practically nobody can. And this is what we call “progressâ€Â........
Yes, sore indeed.
But does any business, profit or non, care how its customers got there?
Or are they more concerned with what's in their wallet when they arrive.
I'm sure there are some people who dressed up in "date wear" and then biked to the Beck for a musical, but I doubt if they were in the majority.
It's a cruel truth, but I don't think the "50,000 people can walk to it" argument impresses anyone who needs to meet a bottom line, unless we're talking Park Avenue. If I'm in charge, I don't mind at all seeing a parking lot full of Lexuses (Lexii??)
It's a tough world out there.
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Jeff Endress
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Charyn
Not yet a done deal.....recent talk with the Mayor and he indicated that GE is still uncommitted on any action re: Bunts....Although I think its safe to assume that after W.117 is on line that enough business will be siphoned off to justify closing Bunts.
Trader Joe's would be nice. I understand that as a result of the landlord dispute, Ruth Chris has closed on the East side, but is interested in a maintaining a Cleveland presence and there are few west side steak houses. Given the westend's "entertainment district" feel, a restaurant or two could work, but I would prefer a mixed use, larger scale office complex with the shopping/restaurant options.
Jeff
We are losing Giant Eagle so there should be ample opportunity for sales
Not yet a done deal.....recent talk with the Mayor and he indicated that GE is still uncommitted on any action re: Bunts....Although I think its safe to assume that after W.117 is on line that enough business will be siphoned off to justify closing Bunts.
Trader Joe's would be nice. I understand that as a result of the landlord dispute, Ruth Chris has closed on the East side, but is interested in a maintaining a Cleveland presence and there are few west side steak houses. Given the westend's "entertainment district" feel, a restaurant or two could work, but I would prefer a mixed use, larger scale office complex with the shopping/restaurant options.
Jeff
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Tim Liston
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You know what I think would be a best use of the facilities that Beck would leave behind? Here's an off-the-wall idea. Really crazy..........
An arts center.
Why can't someone else take it over and run it more or less like it has been? Maybe this time with a little bit more support from the City and its residents. Might the buildings be obtainable on the cheap?
Every time Beck sent me a letter asking for a donation, I sent one. Three times last year. I'd sooner eat glass than send them another nickel if they move to Westlake, but I will double my donation to any organization that takes the facility over and runs it.
“Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone ......â€Â
And don't forget that the Armory behind the main building is used by many instructors who teach hundreds of musicians (most who are children) their various musical lessons. That operation used to be run out of a building over on Riverside and Detroit. It's been around forever. I bet these instructors and students will be reluctant to operate likewise at Crocker Park. Is that operation being considered as part of the move? A lot of money was put into that building to create little practice rooms around the central performance area.
Let's find somebody to take it over just as it is. Maybe Nickie Antonio needs to step up. If I remember right I thought I heard her trumpet her desire for an “arts district†in one of the candidate's forums before the election. I know I'm gonna hear "it didn't work before what makes you think it can work now" reasoning and it's hard to refute that. But one of my daughter's Montessori teachers has five "great rules", one of which is "to do good is difficult."
Besides I don't like Trader Joe's. Bananas sold by the “each†and not by the pound� Aisles and aisles of “health food†in cans and boxes? Trader Joe's and exurbia were meant for each other. I'll take Nature's Bin any day.....
An arts center.
Why can't someone else take it over and run it more or less like it has been? Maybe this time with a little bit more support from the City and its residents. Might the buildings be obtainable on the cheap?
Every time Beck sent me a letter asking for a donation, I sent one. Three times last year. I'd sooner eat glass than send them another nickel if they move to Westlake, but I will double my donation to any organization that takes the facility over and runs it.
“Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone ......â€Â
And don't forget that the Armory behind the main building is used by many instructors who teach hundreds of musicians (most who are children) their various musical lessons. That operation used to be run out of a building over on Riverside and Detroit. It's been around forever. I bet these instructors and students will be reluctant to operate likewise at Crocker Park. Is that operation being considered as part of the move? A lot of money was put into that building to create little practice rooms around the central performance area.
Let's find somebody to take it over just as it is. Maybe Nickie Antonio needs to step up. If I remember right I thought I heard her trumpet her desire for an “arts district†in one of the candidate's forums before the election. I know I'm gonna hear "it didn't work before what makes you think it can work now" reasoning and it's hard to refute that. But one of my daughter's Montessori teachers has five "great rules", one of which is "to do good is difficult."
Besides I don't like Trader Joe's. Bananas sold by the “each†and not by the pound� Aisles and aisles of “health food†in cans and boxes? Trader Joe's and exurbia were meant for each other. I'll take Nature's Bin any day.....
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Tim Liston
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- Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 3:10 pm
And for those who misconstrued my "50,000 people" comment. I run a business and I fully understand that you have to sell your wares to those who want to buy them. Make no mistake about that. All I basically said is that sprawl is wrong. The next time I feel the urge to propose social responsibility I'll just shut my yapper......
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dl meckes
- Posts: 1475
- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:29 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Rather than blaming Lakewood for the problems with Beck Center, I would have to examine the history of the actions of the Board of Directors and the Executive Directors (who have come and gone as if they were using revolving doors).
This not-for-profit has not been run like a business and anyone who has pushed to run it like a business has been pushed out.
Kenneth Beck passed away a long time ago and there has been no angel to replace him.
Some benefactors have "aged out." Many of the patrons have also "aged out."
The Cleveland Artists Foundation (Beck Center's tenant) has looked to find a larger space for some time. They were ready to buy a building in Cleveland, but it burned.
The problems with Beck Center are not new. They are the problems that most not-for-profits face. And theater is very risky business.
One thing that killed the Cleveland Ballet was the fact that the board couldn't stand up to Dennis Nahat and demand that productions be scaled down so they didn't keep going into the red.
When Great Lakes Shakespeare moved downtown their subscriptions tripled. Now their subscription base is back down to the Lakewood levels.
I don't think that the City of Lakewood can be blamed for a business that can't run its business. You have to look to the source.
Understand that I am a life-long and impassioned supporter of the arts.
The value of the Beck Center also is not simply what they offer to the city in terms of the Arts, but also the influx of visitors to the city who wish to patronize our hospitality before or after the shows. That's a lot of dollars going to businesses that aren't in Lakewood.
This not-for-profit has not been run like a business and anyone who has pushed to run it like a business has been pushed out.
Kenneth Beck passed away a long time ago and there has been no angel to replace him.
Some benefactors have "aged out." Many of the patrons have also "aged out."
The Cleveland Artists Foundation (Beck Center's tenant) has looked to find a larger space for some time. They were ready to buy a building in Cleveland, but it burned.
The problems with Beck Center are not new. They are the problems that most not-for-profits face. And theater is very risky business.
One thing that killed the Cleveland Ballet was the fact that the board couldn't stand up to Dennis Nahat and demand that productions be scaled down so they didn't keep going into the red.
When Great Lakes Shakespeare moved downtown their subscriptions tripled. Now their subscription base is back down to the Lakewood levels.
I don't think that the City of Lakewood can be blamed for a business that can't run its business. You have to look to the source.
Understand that I am a life-long and impassioned supporter of the arts.
The value of the Beck Center also is not simply what they offer to the city in terms of the Arts, but also the influx of visitors to the city who wish to patronize our hospitality before or after the shows. That's a lot of dollars going to businesses that aren't in Lakewood.
“One of they key problems today is that politics is such a disgrace. Good people don’t go into government.”- 45